Music and Emotion

Sure, it's called syntheasia. I was just being general about it. Infact, I'm reading a book called musicophilia that talks a lot about music-visual syntheasia. The books also talks a lot about absolute (or perfect) pitch, and one of the interesting things that I learned was that infants, when tested to discern diferent melodies, relied more on absolute pitch cues than the adults did. I'm not sure exactly how the test worked, but the results seem to indicate that in our childhood we all have absolute pitch. (or at least the potential for it) The author also tells of a community somewhere in the pacific where all the residents have absolute pitch. Once again, I'm not entirley sure if that is true or not, but the prospect is interesting. And I think we all still have some potential for absolute pitch.

The reason children are able to respond more to absolute pitch than adults is, developmentally, children learn easier than adults. That's been proven over and over again psychologically. There is no indication that a newborn infant, or an embryo in utero, responds to absolute pitch.

For example listen to

.

Does something sound "off" at all to you? This song's key is about half way between F# and G. We all have the same absolute pitch reference that people with absolute pitch have, we just haven't developed it yet. It instantly sounds off to us because it is using a pitch we are not firmiliar with.

I did some specailzed perfect pitch ear traning for awhile, and I was able to distinguish a few absolute pitches. Although most of the time it was slow, I remember one time at a piano recital being able to tell instantly that one piece someone was playing was in G.

Interestingly enough, some of the hardest pitches to distinguish for me were the ones located a fifth apart. I always had problems with A and E for example. Sometimes for example, I would be able to tell that a pitch was either A or E, but I wasn't entirley sure exactly which one it was.

The brain is a muscle, who says we can't just excercize the muscles used for absolute pitch discrimination? I didn't continue with my ear training, but it worked for me while I was doing it.

I think one thing your not taking into account though, especially when you state these things, is that there are several distinct influences in our understanding of music.

1. Culture

2. Education and Development

3. Experience

A person's culture effects the type of music and the associated responses to that type. A culture may traditionally associate a melody rising up in pitch to immense sadness. The member of the culture listening would then respond appropriately to the cultural conditioning.

The same can be said of their education and development. A person may learn that two pitches played a fourth a part are evil, immutable pitches that denote evil. Thus, when he/she listens to it, the response is of a sense of evil.

A person's experience effects the response to music. A person may get horribly raped 10 times, while each time the Funeral March from Beethoven's Eroica Symphony is playing. Finally, the person would thus respond to the march in a violently emotive manner - similar to the manner he/she was raped. The piece would thus become bad to that person, sadly.

There may be other ways that determine a persons response to music. I think, though, these three are the main means at which individuals develop responses. Many of these responses are developed within the first 15 years or so. Again, this is an oversimplification.

I think it's also important to note:

You stated you are reading about people who see colors while listening to music, from my understanding not everyone sees the same colors in music. If emotional responses were uniform to people, then we would expect to see the same responses from every person. We do not see the same responses from person to person, thus emotional responses are different on an individual basis.

The reason children are able to respond more to absolute pitch than adults is, developmentally, children learn easier than adults. That's been proven over and over again psychologically. There is no indication that a newborn infant, or an embryo in utero, responds to absolute pitch.

Well, I've heard some arguments to that, (mainly to the one that children learn languages faster than adults) but I suppose it could be true in some cases. But I don't think that explains why children would discriminate the examples by pitch MORE THEN they used the intervals themselves. Although, like I said I am not sure exactly how the test was conducted, I'm going to have to do some more research.

I think one thing your not taking into account though, especially when you state these things, is that there are several distinct influences in our understanding of music.

1. Culture

2. Education and Development

3. Experience

A person's culture effects the type of music and the associated responses to that type. A culture may traditionally associate a melody rising up in pitch to immense sadness. The member of the culture listening would then respond appropriately to the cultural conditioning.

The same can be said of their education and development. A person may learn that two pitches played a fourth a part are evil, immutable pitches that denote evil. Thus, when he/she listens to it, the response is of a sense of evil.

A person's experience effects the response to music. A person may get horribly raped 10 times, while each time the Funeral March from Beethoven's Eroica Symphony is playing. Finally, the person would thus respond to the march in a violently emotive manner - similar to the manner he/she was raped. The piece would thus become bad to that person, sadly.

There may be other ways that determine a persons response to music. I think, though, these three are the main means at which individuals develop responses. Many of these responses are developed within the first 15 years or so. Again, this is an oversimplification.

I think it's also important to note:

You stated you are reading about people who see colors while listening to music, from my understanding not everyone sees the same colors in music. If emotional responses were uniform to people, then we would expect to see the same responses from every person. We do not see the same responses from person to person, thus emotional responses are different on an individual basis.

Yes, I have stated in this thread sevreal times at this point that music has both universal un-changing constructs, and learned reactions that vary. But I don't see how any of this is relavent to what I said. What I am talking about is hearing diferent wavelengths the same way we see color, (absolute pitch) and how I believe it to be innate, but lost over time, or at the very least, we all have the potental for it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let me be clear that the people who see color with music are experiencing a diferent phenomenon than those who have absolute pitch. Yes, the people with syntheasia do not all see the same colors. People with absolute pitch are just sensing the absolute chroma of the notes themselves more acutley than people without it do.

Just to draw your attention to this (I don't think this has been mentioned), apparently some emotions are more universally detected in certain types of music. I know the article is a bit biased concerning this topic, but the basic facts about the experiment described are true. The explanation that some aspects of Western CP music imitate speech patterns would be quite logical IMO especially if you count in the theory that our sense for music developed through our sense of language from an evolutional point of view.

Although as far as I know African language families are quite distinct from European ones as they split up a significant amount of time ago. Makes it even more interesting, doesn't it?

Just to draw your attention to this (I don't think this has been mentioned), apparently some emotions are more universally detected in certain types of music. I know the article is a bit biased concerning this topic, but the basic facts about the experiment described are true. The explanation that some aspects of Western CP music imitate speech patterns would be quite logical IMO especially if you count in the theory that our sense for music developed through our sense of language from an evolutional point of view.

Although as far as I know African language families are quite distinct from European ones as they split up a significant amount of time ago. Makes it even more interesting, doesn't it?

Interesting, yes. (The bit about speech patterns brought this to mind: Charels Spearin's Happiness Project <-- stunning, but perhaps not completely relevant)

However, 60% does not a "universal language" make... I don't think anyone is trying to deny that, yes, some stimuli will often evoke a certain type of very generalized response. I.e. Happy vs Sad.

What some folks seem keen to debate is that music (or any art) is capapble of conveying specific and predictably universal emotional responses. Show me a song that everyone will know is "Glad" but not "Elated" ... or one that is "Sullen" but not "Forlorn" and I might buy into the whole thing.

I find this work to be a happy piece.

I find this work to be a happy piece.

You were quite the strange one as a child, weren't you?

This piece gives me overwhelming joy.

I find this work to be a happy piece.

You're joking......right?

............riiiighttt...?

I've always wondered who composed that. We hear it all the time in cartoons and movies, and people whistle it all the time as a joke when someone gets in trouble or whatever, but I never knew who composed it.This is great because my girlfriend loves Chopin.

Edit: The mood does change in the middle, so I guess in THAT regard it's happy. However I wouldn't say that goes for the entire piece.

It makes me happy because it reminds me of those cartoons and other good memories in my life. So, I associate it with happiness.

It makes me happy because it reminds me of those cartoons and other good memories in my life. So, I associate it with happiness.

That's true, but it's also so dark that it's actually unintentionally goofy in the first place :lol: Which would probably explain its popular use in the cartoons.

Not Chopin's finest moment, in my opinion :musicwhistle:

I personally don't believe either that music can convey very specific emotions by itself. It's mostly our previous experience with music that we relate to. I believe that many people find it easy to grasp tonal music is that it can be interpreted as the conflict between happy and sad, basically being built up by two consonant chords with a lot of decoration around them. More "modern" music usually doesn't have this distinction so I believe it's harder to get what the composer wants to say. If you are used to listening to any kind of music you will learn to understand it. It's an illusion.

Take for example a piece in a minor key. If you play a bVII chord (dominant of relative major), it will sound happy simply because you expect to hear a III afterwards - the relative major chord. Even more, if you play a III chord in a major key it will destroy the sense of happiness or whatever you call it as you can guess that the next chord is the relative minor - the chord sounds minor in a way even though it's just a major triad. We're just used to so many pieces that modulate that way that we can expect what comes next (Well, a lot of us have been at some point I believe).

Of course, it doesn't have to be that way and playing with the listeners' minds is very interesting to do.

One question that begs my mind though: Why do most people hearing tonal music begin to associate a major triad with happiness and a minor one with sadness and not the other way around?

^^

totally untrue, there are some majorly happy tunes in minor keys, and some fearsome tracks in major-its all in the relations and the build-ups of the movements.

regarding emotion, to me its very simple-emotion is complex movement of things which are moving too fast for the listener to be aware of what is really moving there, and therefore regards it as a whole. if you break apart music it will be very cold and unrelated.

now, if the listener feels anything from the music itself or not, its a matter of personal taste and the history of the listener's music. tonal music, IMO, provokes much easier response to most people, more complex harmony and melody, means more complex emotions.

the movement in which go about our life and the what we feel, joy-going up movement, sad-down lovement of notes, are just one example of how movie scorers use it to represent a scene.

I personally don't believe either that music can convey very specific emotions by itself. It's mostly our previous experience with music that we relate to. I believe that many people find it easy to grasp tonal music is that it can be interpreted as the conflict between happy and sad, basically being built up by two consonant chords with a lot of decoration around them. More "modern" music usually doesn't have this distinction so I believe it's harder to get what the composer wants to say. If you are used to listening to any kind of music you will learn to understand it. It's an illusion.

Take for example a piece in a minor key. If you play a bVII chord (dominant of relative major), it will sound happy simply because you expect to hear a III afterwards - the relative major chord. Even more, if you play a III chord in a major key it will destroy the sense of happiness or whatever you call it as you can guess that the next chord is the relative minor - the chord sounds minor in a way even though it's just a major triad. We're just used to so many pieces that modulate that way that we can expect what comes next (Well, a lot of us have been at some point I believe).

Of course, it doesn't have to be that way and playing with the listeners' minds is very interesting to do.

One question that begs my mind though: Why do most people hearing tonal music begin to associate a major triad with happiness and a minor one with sadness and not the other way around?

A few reasons:

A minor triad is not found in the immediate overtones of harmonic instruments.

A minor third is smaller than a major third, and hence, following general factors, is more "sad". (smaller intervals = sadder, larger = happier) Although it isn't as simple as that, there are other factors in play.

A minor third is a slightly more complex interval than a major third, and hence, slightly more dissonant.

Stacking perfect fifths downwards, we obtain all the minor (or small) intervals, stacking perfect fifths up, we get all the major (or large) intervals. This further strengthens the general tendencies I mentioned earlier.

Positive, up, large, faster = "happy"

Negative, down, small, slower = "sad"

Apart from these general characteristics, how we emotionaly react to music is shaped on various other ascosiations and our cultures, like me and SSC mentioned before.