Did Stravinsky plagiarise The Rite of Spring

Repertoire from the Archives of Russia,

The Wrong of Spring by E Tudor-Titsoff.

This work should be on the repertoire. Little known, it was composed by a female acquaintance of Stravinsky, Eva Tudor-Titsoff, under the orchestral tutelage of Nicola Ripsa-Korsettsoff. Ms Titsoff had hoped to obtain work under Sergei Diaghlev (never once realising that only men found themselves under said Director) and handed her score to Stravinsky who promptly plagiarised it for his Bag of Springs score (originally, Le Sac des Printemps. This title was subsequently changed when he saw the potential of Ms Titsoff

Eh, someone once said "Good authors borrow. Great authors steal outright."

Fascinating!

There's so much to steal from this piece. It's a wonder that E.T-T didn't come forward and publicly chastise so many of the artists who may have very well plagarized her work. Ives, Weber, and Orff immediately spring to mind.

Clearly the solo line at 1:48 is so well concealed in the body of the work that Stravinsky probably thought he could get away with it - (he so ingeniously disquising it by scoring it for a bassoon playing outside the normal range of what was considered reasonable in his day). Obviously, he thought no one would take a "woman's" work seriously even if it somehow came to light.

Fabulous research, montpellier. Keep up the good work

This is not in the correct thread. Moving to 'Repetoire'.

This is not in the correct thread. Moving to 'Repetoire'.

[/b]

Now THIS is funny. Looks like we got one! :)

I'm pretty sure humor is allowed - although perhaps it's not always appreciated :D - I guess I'll have to conceed that your 'find' is even more creative than mine. :huh:

Nickthoven, I'm pretty sure it was in the proper thread to start. Please read carefully (between the lines that is) and listen to the mp3. If you still think it's been properly placed, then I would guess that you might want to move my Mozthoven transcription to 'Repertoire' as well.

If anyone can confirm or comment on this discovery, Grovells Musical Dictionary would be most grateful.

Funny, M. You had me going for about three sentences.

Hmm...I didn't read the thread at all. I merely skimmed it, finding that there were no original compositions being presented. Therefore, being originally in the Orchestral section of the "Upload Your Compositions" forum, it was in the wrong place.

Looks like I've been caught by the over-zealous update fairy. And caught someone into the bargain!

Ok, I've been here 2 months and the peversity of some people amuses faintly. Worth the entertaiment at least. But, aren't moderators supposed to read a post before hacking away at it? What a silly assumption I did make!

And I was evidently right about humour here. Apologies. It won't happen again.

But the work I presented has no place in Repertoire.

Nickthoven, did you really think The Wrong of Spring is established repertoire? I hate to disillusion you but nahhh, mate.

:huh:

Well, it gave us a bit of a laugh, so for that I'll enlighten you that the work you're most probably thinking of is "Le Sacre du Printemps" or "The Rite of Spring".

However, I don't want newcomers getting misled so I'm deleting the lot. Perish the thought of someone walking into a music store and querying it. I remember an early teen stint in a music store and people asking for Handel's Water Works and Mozart's Sunshine Sonata (which it has remained for me ever since).

Well, it turned out a waste of time so you won't catch me posting more music for a fair while. .Or reviewing (which you could have done to my work if you'd wanted). It is, as the saying goes, aucun problème.

:D

learn from the old addage:

Nolle flatulare nisi clunes paratae sunt.

However, I don't want newcomers getting misled so I'm deleting the lot. Perish the thought of someone walking into a music store and querying it. I remember an early teen stint in a music store and people asking for Handel's Water Works and Mozart's Sunshine Sonata (which it has remained for me ever since).

Well, it turned out a waste of time so you won't catch me posting more music for a fair while. .Or reviewing (which you could have done to my work if you'd wanted). [/b]

Now, now, M.,

Please, don't get all in a huff and go deleting good posts nilly-willy. I think you didn't give this one enough of a chance. Yes, Nickthoven was hasty, but he was only trying to do his job, and he's probably got more than a few things on his plate. And to be fair, your post was deliciously deceptive. Personally, I think sending a young student on a spree to research the works of E.T. or find that "Water Works" recording would only serve to teach them a good lesson about veracity on the internet. No harm done, and the rest of us get a good chuckle. Not to mention that for those of us in the know, there's the opportunity to observe a composer's knowledge of repertiore and ability to manipulate things stylistically. Heck, I even had a few ideas on the back burner. This shouldn't discourage you (or me); rather, this should be an opportunity. I know we're both on the same page, and I don't know about you, but I'm learning a few things here and there as I do this stuff.

It's a pity nick.. didn't move it back into it's original folder when he made his concession.

Well, it turned out a waste of time so you won't catch me posting more music for a fair while. .Or reviewing (which you could have done to my work if you'd wanted). [/b]

A waste of time?? Absolutely not. Like I said, perhaps if you gave it a bit more time, you could have started a great thread where people could learn while being entertained (imagine that). I was about to ask you for a copy of the score - a pdf, midi file, etc.. I even still harbor hopes for Mozthoven, which so far has amounted to two days of work for 1.5 reviews. Do you see me complaining? (Well, maybe a little - right here and now :( ) Now, as far as reviewing is concerned, I personally look forward to yours (heck, you're just about the only person around here who puts any time into my stuff, and God knows I put a fair amount of time into reviewing others' material on these forums.

Yours is the stuff that can change the culture around here. Don't throw away the opportunity. Let your voice be heard. Damn the torpedoes!

Ok, I'm stepping off my soapbox. :thumbsup:

leightwing - hi!

Thank you for your support!

You're perfectly right of course, I really missed the trick. I should have carried on in the repertoire vein. Give me a few minutes....

It wasn't a huff really - I had a moment's incensed-ness about these trigger-happy mods but originally thought this would never get anywhere in the repertoire forum. As you say it might as well be here as anywhere then....

:thumbsup:

PS Understand - about reviewing. I am in a similar situation.

pps - apologies for errors in the o/p - it became too late too quick to edit them. Why does the edit function switch out after about 24 hrs?

Anyway:

Diaghilev, not Diaghlev.

Une Fée m'a baisé....not baisée

Eh, someone once said "Good authors borrow. Great authors steal outright."

Teehee. That was Stravinsky. The actual quote is:

"Good composers borrow. Great composers steal".

anyway, the point of this post is:

Everyone who responded to this thread is extremely gullible.

Except me, of course.

i know, all the names are mocks of stravinsky acquaintences