Four Part Writing - A Few Questions

Hi,

Regarding root position four part writing, as long as I do not commit parallel perfect 5ths/Octaves, direct parallel perfect 5ths and octaves et al, any formation of chord progression is acceptable? There are a great many permutations it's mind numbing to think of it, I seek assurance that any of these are acceptable. Anything else that I may need to be further aware of?

Any chord progression is usable, but in a four-part writing you should be aware of note doublings, too. Usually it's best to double the root of the chord (the bass in this case), or the strongest note in the sonority: the tonic, the dominant or the subdominant note. Never double a dominant seventh or a leading note (7th degree of the scale)! Avoid doubling the 5th of the chord if possible, because it makes voice leading very difficult.

Hope this helps.

Any chord progression is usable, but in a four-part writing you should be aware of note doublings, too. Usually it's best to double the root of the chord (the bass in this case), or the strongest note in the sonority: the tonic, the dominant or the subdominant note. Never double a dominant seventh or a leading note (7th degree of the scale)! Avoid doubling the 5th of the chord if possible, because it makes voice leading very difficult.

Hope this helps.

So basically, in the context of my studies, any progression that does not violate the laws set forth in my Harmony text is acceptable? I did read a while back about certain progressions being more desirable than others, the details of which were never elaborated upon. But upon reflection I would assume the desirable qualities could only be that of the intactness of each individual sonority, am I right? So in that case doublings et al would be the key factor, another might be the level of independence of each voice. But other then that, I am free to write any progression in four parts that does not violate any rules? I ask this as a student and not a full-fledged artist breaking free from these lesson constraints. Thanks again for your time.

If looking for more of a quasi contrapuntal texture, then the main concern is the independence of the voices. you'll be keeping an eye out for parallel fifths and octaves between the bass and soprano, and avoiding it wherever possible between the middle voice(s) and the bottom or top one, whichever is the principal or cantus firmus (or, even more strictly avoiding parallel fifths/octaves between any and all voices). in more modern harmony, say 18th century on, thirds are generally considered consonant, fourths dissonant. before that it was the exact opposite, so I encourage you to try both using mainly thirds and then fourths and see what comes out of your composing with that.

for normal rhythm section playing, parallel fifths and octaves between the middle voices and the outer is usually fine, but you should still try and avoid parallel and hidden perfect consonances (8ves and 5s) between the outer voices. the biggest difference between more contrapuntally based harmony and simple backing track harmony is in what you choose to double, you usually try and avoid doubling the fifth period, but in contrapuntal harmony you generally want to avoid doubling the octave too. this would leave you with doubling the third, or using the sixth.

(...)I ask this as a student and not a full-fledged artist breaking free from these lesson constraints.

I don't know what Harmony textbook you are using, but since the basics are generally similar everywhere, you should just sticks to the rules and everything will be fine. If you don't need any melodic development and proper phrasing, you can just write down random chord progressions, using as little movement in upper voices as possible (the bass jumps between root notes), and avoid direct perfect intervals between outer voices (soprano and bass) like Connor said. Some textbooks also teach that - except for some cadencial formulae - you should always double the root of the chord.

When you are writing progressions, you will find some of them easier than others, I mean, where two chords have one or two common notes, these notes can remain stationary making voice-leading more simple. It's generally a good practice to have at least one note in common with the next chord, and these progressions are relatively strong.

I don't about you but my textbook has a lot more rules.

Chord progressions whose roots move a fifth upwards or downwards, fourth upwards or downwards, and a third downwards are generally more acceptable.

Doubling the fifth is more acceptable than doubling the third, although leaving out the third altogether is the worst. You can triple the tonic. If you double the third, let it be with either the top two or bottom two voices.

Avoid melodies with augmented intervals in a harmonic minor key.

If you use V7 in root position, the third note of the chord rises up to the tonic the and the seventh note resolves down to the third note of the scale. So in C major, the B in your V7 chord rises to C and the F goes down to E. It's a little different for first, second, and third inversions. I can't remember the rules for those at the moment.

The four voices have ranges you need to stay within.

All these are just what I can remember right now. There are a lot more things to know.

EDIT: http://www.google.co...aq=0&aqi=&aql=&

I don't about you but my textbook has a lot more rules.

Chord progressions whose roots move a fifth upwards or downwards, fourth upwards or downwards, and a third downwards are generally more acceptable.

Doubling the fifth is more acceptable than doubling the third, although leaving out the third altogether is the worst. You can triple the tonic. If you double the third, let it be with either the top two or bottom two voices.

Avoid melodies with augmented intervals in a harmonic minor key.

If you use V7 in root position, the third note of the chord rises up to the tonic the and the seventh note resolves down to the third note of the scale. So in C major, the B in your V7 chord rises to C and the F goes down to E. It's a little different for first, second, and third inversions. I can't remember the rules for those at the moment.

The four voices have ranges you need to stay within.

All these are just what I can remember right now. There are a lot more things to know.

EDIT: http://www.google.co...aq=0&aqi=&aql=&

Okay, so anything that sticks to those rules is good. As long as I know that, and have peace of mind, then I'm all set. I don't have a teacher, so I currently feel a bit hesitant about what I am doing. Reading elsewhere about some progressions being not good made me question what I was doing. I have internalized the rules, no problems there, but thanks to all for going over a few things nonetheless as it did illuminate a few things for me.

What I said was just off the top of my head. There are more rules and exceptions. But I would imagine teaching yourself on the internet would not be too hard.

What I said was just off the top of my head. There are more rules and exceptions. But I would imagine teaching yourself on the internet would not be too hard.

So, with these, I am on the right track? It's as many permutations of the I-ii progression in C major.

So, with these, I am on the right track? It's as many permutations of the I-ii progression in C major.

Every of your I-ii progressions are good where the bass ascends while the other three voices descend (two of them by a 2nd in parallel 3th or 6th and the third by a 3rd), but try to keep upper voices as close as possible to each other. Descending by a 7th in the bass is very unusual, except for some cadencial movements, usually from the subdominant to the dominant (ii6/3 -> V or IV -> V).

Anyway, if you don't have a teacher, try YC Lessons thread. It's much more effective than studying by yourself. Don't forget that even the greatest composers had teachers.

http://forum.youngcomposers.com/t28087/lessons-faq-teacher-list/

Every of your I-ii progressions are good where the bass ascends while the other three voices descend (two of them by a 2nd in parallel 3th or 6th and the third by a 3rd), but try to keep upper voices as close as possible to each other. Descending by a 7th in the bass is very unusual, except for some cadencial movements, usually from the subdominant to the dominant (ii6/3 -> V or IV -> V).

Anyway, if you don't have a teacher, try YC Lessons thread. It's much more effective than studying by yourself. Don't forget that even the greatest composers had teachers.

http://forum.youngcomposers.com/t28087/lessons-faq-teacher-list/

Lessons? How does it work? How much are they? I've tried to find someone in the past who could teach me, but alas, to no avail! It doesn't help that I never had the opportunity to study music as part of my formal education, and was being groomed for business (something I detested). But if someone were to assist me in my efforts, I would greatly appreciate that!

Many thanks for your time in appraising my examples.

First of all, the voices should be notated with individual stems. The higher voice on each stave has its stem always facing up and the lower one has its stem always facing down.

I - II is kind of unusual. In my previous post I wrote some rules about chord progressions. I'm not sure if this chord progression is forbidden or just something a little unusual, but I would use I-IV-II if I were you.

Another thing to keep in mind is the distance between the voices. The top three voices cannot separate more than an octave. The bass cannot separate from the tenor further than an octave plus a fifth apart. I see some double octaves, which is breaking a rule.

You have parallel fifths in bars 2, 4 and 8. The red squiggly lines seem to show you that.

And as Matthaeus said, descending a seventh is unusual. Another option is to use inversions. You could have the bass play the F in the D minor chord.

But really, use the internets. The rules are there.

Following traditional rules of harmony, the king will now kill you because of those parallel 5ths. Now, I love parallel 5ths, and I use them all the time, but if you're following those rules, you can't do that.

Following traditional rules of harmony, the king will now kill you because of those parallel 5ths. Now, I love parallel 5ths, and I use them all the time, but if you're following those rules, you can't do that.

:toothygrin:

What I basically did was write out as many permutations of each diatonic progression as I could think of, in root progression that is, and then go through them checking for part writing errors. I neglected to mention this before hand, my apologise. When posting this I was basically giving a reference of what I had been up to. I've worked out a systematic approach for checking through these progressions quickly.

I don't want to butt in just for this... but direct 5ths and octaves not between soprano and bass aren't problematic if one of the two voices moves by step, even if it is the lower voice. At least, that is what I was taught.

I don't want to butt in just for this... but direct 5ths and octaves not between soprano and bass aren't problematic if one of the two voices moves by step, even if it is the lower voice. At least, that is what I was taught.

Yes, I know that.... if you were telling that to me. :P If not, pay attention everyone, there's a rule out there now!

Lessons? How does it work? How much are they? I've tried to find someone in the past who could teach me, but alas, to no avail! It doesn't help that I never had the opportunity to study music as part of my formal education, and was being groomed for business (something I detested). But if someone were to assist me in my efforts, I would greatly appreciate that!

Many thanks for your time in appraising my examples.

According to the Lessons thread rules, you have to send a private message to robinjessome.

"To sign up:

- Pick the subject you want to learn and with whom you'd like to study.

- PM robinjessome indicating your subject and teacher preferences.

- Robin and/or your new teacher will respond with a decision on your placement."

Any kind of direct parallel is "wrong" unless, and this is the only possible exception, is a diminished 5th into a perfect 5th, and not the other way around (if I remember right, someone look this up.)

Octaves are no-no, no matter in which voices they are. In general all counterpoint rules apply save for the 4ths being a dissonance. For example, the bass cannot make dissonant jumps (7ths, tritones, etc.) Plus you need to watch out for augmented 2nds in minor as well as hidden parallels and anti-parallels.

There's also the whole other deal with how to resolve suspensions and so on, which can't be on every voice.

I think that without a solid example to look at, it's hard. And by example I mean a choral harmonization, not just chords thrown together. Take one from Bach and remove everything but the soprano and start from there.

What is said earlier about chord progressions that move up or down a single step might have been misleading. There are exceptions; so IV-V and V-VI are completely acceptable. VII-I as well I think.

Just wanted to clarify.

What is said earlier about chord progressions that move up or down a single step might have been misleading. There are exceptions; so IV-V and V-VI are completely acceptable. VII-I as well I think.

Just wanted to clarify.

Thanks for the clarification ^_^

What is said earlier about chord progressions that move up or down a single step might have been misleading. There are exceptions; so IV-V and V-VI are completely acceptable. VII-I as well I think.

Just wanted to clarify.

I could add I-ii-I6 to the list since it can be found very often in Bach-chorales, when the bass rises from the tonic to the mediant note through the supertonic. The ii often have a doubled 3rd this time.