Why the pianists dont know the basic rules

As you know the basic principicles on the piano writing.

Slur means legato

And unmarked notes is non legato.There are two main articulation on the piano.But when ı wrote the modern music or like classical music.When ı give my music to the pianist.some pianist play my unmarked notes legato.What could be the reason for this?

Probably that unmarked notes do not mean non legato. If you want the pianist to play staccato or semi staccato, notate it. It is not uncommon to play unmarked notes legato.

Yeah and piano articulations are far more wide ranging than what you write. No slur does mean non legato for strings and winds but for piano it is stylistic and depends on the room and piano. Another thing you can do with unslurred notes is write non-legato. If you want a light touch (eg notes separated but avoidance of accents) then leggiero is a great expression mark.

Yeah and piano articulations are far more wide ranging than what you write. No slur does mean non legato for strings and winds but for piano it is stylistic and depends on the room and piano. Another thing you can do with unslurred notes is write non-legato. If you want a light touch (eg notes separated but avoidance of accents) then leggiero is a great expression mark.

OK?What about general rules on piano writing could you explain touch rules ?...for example unmarked means what and that rules coming where which theoric rules say this rules?How can you explain this...

Because the great teachers of the world daniel gottlieb turk,cp.e bach,marpurg and most using methods like beyer and russian school french school ext say the non legato means absolutly non legato.And twentieth cenrtury composers writing on that rules.For example bartok prokofief and schostovich milton babbit and imressionist composers means when the text is unmarked the score is absolutely non legato.Why am ı write external expression in my score.İs that so ridiculous?

I don't know what "general" or "theoric rules" you are talking about. Unmarked notes do not mean non legato. You might have been misinformed on this.

It's always nice to spell composer's names correctly.

As a general rule, unmarked notes means play with articulation and length at the discretion of the performer as implied by the style of the piece (or explicitly stated by an expression marking). "Non-legato" is a meanlingless term. It's been that way since notation began.

Schostovich!!

Let me clarify and illuminate the complexity of keyboard touch.

First off, any keyboard music written before the late 17th century was played using the thumb as little as possible. Also finger crossings were avoided. With Couperin, this began to change and later with Bach full use of all fingers and ocassional finger crossing were permitted. As a result you ended up with what we may call non-legato, or in Bach's time an ordinary legato - the note is allowed to completely release before striking the next note. You get a very very tiny gap in sound - the idea is to minimize the gap. Later, with the rise oif the bel canto style that pianists aimed to imitate (and for example found in Chopin), you would get a note released until the sound isalmost completely decayed and attack the next key. Finally there is overlegato where you allow the sound of one note to slightly overlap the next.

In the Baroque era, slurs were marked to have notes played the way unslurred notes in a Chopin or Listz piece would be played. Overlegato was never used. One could say overlegato arose in Romantic literature but even then only for special instances.

Twentieth century to present music uses all three general types of legato, and therefore that is why additional markings are helpful. Sometimes, the Tempo and expression marking at the start of a piece gives a clue. If you write Fast and motoric, you definitely will get a more Baroque legato (eg our nonlegato).

So that is why it isn't so straightforward. I do not disagree that at face value it means non-legato, but what non-legato actually means has changed. What I'd do is to think of it this way: if you do not want notes connected do not add a slur. You can indicate at the beginning of how non-legato you want your unslurred, unarticulated notes to be played.

And as a note about acoustics, although to a less degree, pianists have to adjust their touch to the room.

Let me clarify and illuminate the complexity of keyboard touch.

First off, any keyboard music written before the late 17th century was played using the thumb as little as possible. Also finger crossings were avoided. With Couperin, this began to change and later with Bach full use of all fingers and ocassional finger crossing were permitted. As a result you ended up with what we may call non-legato, or in Bach's time an ordinary legato - the note is allowed to completely release before striking the next note. You get a very very tiny gap in sound - the idea is to minimize the gap. Later, with the rise oif the bel canto style that pianists aimed to imitate (and for example found in Chopin), you would get a note released until the sound isalmost completely decayed and attack the next key. Finally there is overlegato where you allow the sound of one note to slightly overlap the next.

In the Baroque era, slurs were marked to have notes played the way unslurred notes in a Chopin or Listz piece would be played. Overlegato was never used. One could say overlegato arose in Romantic literature but even then only for special instances.

Twentieth century to present music uses all three general types of legato, and therefore that is why additional markings are helpful. Sometimes, the Tempo and expression marking at the start of a piece gives a clue. If you write Fast and motoric, you definitely will get a more Baroque legato (eg our nonlegato).

So that is why it isn't so straightforward. I do not disagree that at face value it means non-legato, but what non-legato actually means has changed. What I'd do is to think of it this way: if you do not want notes connected do not add a slur. You can indicate at the beginning of how non-legato you want your unslurred, unarticulated notes to be played.

And as a note about acoustics, although to a less degree, pianists have to adjust their touch to the room.

İn the baroque the ordinary touch is non legato.So what do you mean with baroque legato.And in the classical period ordinary touch was non legato(when notes unmarked).İn romantic period non legato was still fashinable.My prof always say Brahms,schubert,chopin,schumann must be played always as its wrote.But some of english composers like clementi bring forward legato style.And beethoven and czerny about 1804 began to use legato style.But in russia,germany,norway,france and england to using one to one notation.They are so solid in notation.The most of the big composers from this countrys like milton babbit,schostokovich,prokofief,schönberg,anton webern,schnittke,ravel,debussy,Françaix,stravinksy,shchedrin,Gubaidulina,janacek,bartok exct...

Romantic style just a style for some of romantic music.But we cannot read all the scores with this rules.

Lets think about it

Unmarked notes is non legato in Baroque,Classical,romantic,impressionist and modern eras(expressionism ext..)Because tied and untied notes always different all of the periods.And the pianist must know this basic rule.But pianist can play legato style in Baroque,Classical,and romantic age like all pianist do.But in the the twentieth century the composer must write slur if he wants slur.Because of this non legato notes always play as its wrote.Tempo and character of piece doesnt concern the pianist...

I think that no marking, at least on strings, is just played, not really legato or articulated. If you want staccato, put that there, marcato, put it there, non-legato, put it there. You need to tell people what you want, or they'll just go "oh okay" and play whatever.

Master of Harmony, you are really misguided. I have studied with Baroque specialists as well as those from the Romantic tradition. Tempo markings and expression DO have an effect on how unarticulated notes are played.

Let's compare performances of Bach:

Lipatt, Gould, Arrau, Giesekeng, Bukhman - a movement from the B flat major Partita from Bach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVZkuQceVkU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLEvpQXPLDo&feature=related

Now let's have two performances on Mozart - Gould and Pogorelich

As you can hear there is some room for what is non legato. I'd say Giesekeng in the Bach nails the touch that you speak about.

Finally, our disagreement is not that large - I just think you are being too rigid in the definition of non legato and that it has always remained the same.

If you want a good essay, check Harold Gleason's manual for organ (yes I realize it isn't piano) there are two sections which offer a succinct and good history of keyboard touch and ornamentation.

"Master": as a composer, it is YOUR responsibility for you to notate your music to be played as how you want it to be played. It is not the burden of the performer to try to interpret every open-ended situation you put in your pieces. If you want notes to be staccato, omitting a slur mark won't suffice (unless you are working with the performer to tell them to play as such), but even then, you would be a much better composer to do everything in your power to make sure the piece is being played as you'd like it. Simply being outraged at the fact that a performer isn't playing your poorly notated piece to your liking, isn't the right way to go about it.

Thanks to your advices but ı need to show some examples for you maybe you would understand me after this examples

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLK7byb_l-k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNVVUSuDZMo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/user/ch252525?blend=21&ob=5#p/u/20/M5VEpRoSiY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nBElVXWzY4&feature=related

ı have a lot of work like this.You will see all the pianist of the videos play the unmarked notes non legato(detached).I need to say that if all of pianists in these videos can do right thing on the notation.The other pianists cant see the score with basic rules the pianists is not pianist they only play some notes of composition.Because this are basic rules and this rules must be known.:=)

First off the Stanchinsky 3rd sketch is not exactly non-legato you hear in the Schnittke and Stockhausen. In the Stanchinsky you hear the notes groups a little closer to be a legato periodically.

I think your comparison is not ideal as again I think you miss my point - there are variances in non-legato. In fact in some of the pieces you present the unmarked notes are played staccatto at times or a strong marcato (review the Stockhausen).

Anyway, let's agree to disagree over something that is at heart minor. I will leave you with this thought - if you approach performers this way - being overbearingly perfectionistic - then you will not have an easy time getting performances. When you are at a prestigious university or school or working as a well respected media and film composer (Schnittke for example) then you can dictate. In the meantime, you could learn your pieces the way you want them to sound - good technique is to record your playing. Many good composers have done that - Reich, Ellington, and Glass for example.

Good luck and please post this piano piece of yours you are having trouble getting performed correctly I'd like to check it out.

Love that Ravel piece

Thanks to your advices but ı need to show some examples for you maybe you would understand me after this examples

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c.../20/M5VEpRoSiY8

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

ı have a lot of work like this.You will see all the pianist of the videos play the unmarked notes non legato(detached).I need to say that if all of pianists in these videos can do right thing on the notation.The other pianists cant see the score with basic rules the pianists is not pianist they only play some notes of composition.Because this are basic rules and this rules must be known.:=)

?

The Schnittke, Stockhausen, Janacek and Mosolov immediately have the pianists playing unmarked notes for their full value until the next note.

Why make a huge fuss over nothing?

If you wanted certain notes to be detached from the others, just add a staccato mark, or (if you want to avoid staccati) change that note to half its value, and substitute the rest with, well, a rest. If you want a group of detached notes, write detached, or clearly contrast it with a previous slurred and legato section. If you want a group of notes to be detached from another, slur each group. It's that simple! Nobody should be guessing what you wanted; that is for you to mark in the score.

Your point about the videos is invalid. Schnittke uses both legato and nonlegato, but not consistently. Stockhausen has the notes played quite precisely when it comes to rhythm. Stanchinsky asks for groups of notes, and this is notated clearly in the score. Milhaud and Janacek contrasts legato and nonlegato by not adding slurs in the nonlegato section; in any case it would have been quite impossible to play legato without pedal.

You are correct about unslurred notes meaning nonlegato. The precise nature of this nonlegato depends on the speed of the notes, the nature of the notes (e.g. is it an accompaniment, or a melody?), any other external directions and the composer who wrote it. It is important to note that nonlegato does not necessarily mean staccato, or "detachedness". In some cases it may simply refer to legato without the phrase shapes (e.g. scales and arpeggios).

John thanks for your answer.That is so explanatory in my view.I have been studying composition and ı wrote many music.But in piano music ı learned with russian method.And ı always wrote this methods rules.But some of pianists dont play my musics as ı expect.In my researchs almost all the composer of all periods write detasched way(unmarked notes absolutly non legato).But some cases like czerny or clementi or beethoven write cantabile way.But this way of writing music is so ridicilous.When ı examined the french and russian method or some books about piano music the methods say when notes unmarked they must be played with little spaces.But when ı apply this on my score some of pianist play legato unmarked notes besides they play each slurred group with one continuous legato.I am so confused.

And thanks my friends for trying to help me.