Your Roots

You probably haven't even hit puberty yet and your brain is not fully developed, so I guess I can forgive you.

You probably haven't even hit puberty yet and your brain is not fully developed, so I guess I can forgive you.

Well that was a bit ridiculous and uncalled for. He can honestly just decide not to like pop music. It is just a matter of tastes. If anything it is the other way around. Classical music in most cases is the more sophisticated and developed form of music.

He's not insisting pop music is superior (I'm not sure why anyone would try to argue that). He's saying that a 10 year old doesn't know what kind of music he will and will not listen to for the rest of his life. Hell: I'm twice Heckle's age and I can't even see that far ahead (even though I am much more set in my own ways than he is). I can honestly say I don't like genres like swing and bebop, but who knows how I will feel about it 10 years from now?

A good composer can take something from anything: look at how composers in the past learned from things like birdsong. Limiting yourself or refusing to open your ears to certain things, is naive.

That is fine, but he did it in a rather insulting manner.

Haha Voodoo is just an insulting person. The other day, he was calling me a liar for saying that I compose music to my own standards, and not the standards of my audience. Best to let snakes slither.

That's not quite what I said.

I am white and . . . it is not that serious.

Fair enough. Can't blame a dude for inquiry.

Interesting age span on this forum, it seems. That's good...keeps musicians of all generations in touch. Fun personality span too.

My take is that a dude is drawn to what he's drawn to. I agree that life is long and tastes develop dramatically, but they also may not. I doubt I'll ever have the palette for pure country music. But I also I thought I could never have a palette for hip-hop/rap, pure pop, dubstep, bluegrass, and, well...classical music! Seriously! It's not even been a matter of 'keeping an open mind' or something. I think that the music that speaks to you will speak to you, regardless of genre or age. Your main task is just to keep looking for that music. And if it's all in one genre, or in every genre, so be it (I love looking through my music library for that though - Ravel next to Rage Against the Machine catches my eye currently. mash-up, anyone?).

But I definitely think there's something to learn from pop music. There's a reason people like it so much. And I think it's important to think about those reasons (beyond going 'pff, no taste') and understand them .They might even help your own music. I mean, there are good reasons why Lady Gaga is so huge right now. Some of those reasons have nothing to do with her music...but some do.

Well I see I've created quite the amount of brouhaha around the thread.

You know what, I don't give a damn about Voodoo. I don't know him, just whatever.

RRR: Thank you for being the kind friend you are :D

Phil: You're entirely right. I don't know what I will be 10, 20 years from now. I mean in 4 years I could be driving around and in 10 years I could be married.... and I could come to appreciate rock music. But for now, I'm still going to croak when I hear electric guitar :P

Heckel, stfu, seriously.

Well that was a bit ridiculous and uncalled for.

Bad ideas need to be insulted.

A genre does not have one damn effect on the quality or artistic merit of music. Sure, there's scrafty rock. There's scrafty classical. There's scrafty gamelan. There's scrafty everything.

I am sick and tired of this bizarre divide as if music were something holy and pristine until "something" came and borked it all up.

He can honestly just decide not to like pop music. It is just a matter of tastes.

Not if you're a friggin composer. You can't just dismiss scraggy. That's not how learning or refinement of art and craft work. You HAVE TO be aware of everything. You HAVE TO find merit in everything. Not that it's your favorite; not that it's what you create necessarily; not even that you listen to it outside of an academic context. But you can't just be like "rap? more like crap amirite lololololololol :>" and be a serious, active, listening, growing participant in what you create. It's not that I am well-versed in jack, but it's that I can listen to bounce music and check out the rhythmic interplay; listen to techno and check out the timbres and types of sounds; whatever examples I give are moot, since it should be obvious to any student of music.

Sure, you can't be an expert in everything, or even half of some things; but the patent dismissal of "pop" music is at the very least classist -- insert your favorite -ism for any others, I can at least think of one (oh dem niggaz, dey can't do nuffin rite! fuggin up dat old-tyme muzic with their negroe beats and infectin good white folk to lose thems culture in pop music in lieu of upstanding european compozers; kant evin build a guitar with a soundhole! how doez dat noize cum? an dere so crass -- all dey sing bout is violinse, secs, and hos!). I'm out of line here, for sure, especially as a WASP; but I can't explain the argument against "pop" in general as anything but a class/race thing. Please, convince me otherwise.

Not to mention the absolute meaninglessness of the term "pop." That's been handled before, but I think we all know what's up.

If anything it is the other way around. Classical music in most cases is the more sophisticated and developed form of music.

Prove this statement right now. Sophisticated? What the hell does that even mean? Developed? Riiiiiiight. So is, say, classical metal more sophisticated than power metal from the same time, since it's more intentionally less base? City of Glass (and Stan Kenton in general) might make a killer case study.

Absolutely no apologies for the language or any implications. Believe me, most were edited out.

I think since the majority of pop does kinda suck intellectually, that when put against the high intellectual podium of classical music, it falls flat. That intellectual "superiority", if you will, is what has kept classical music alive for generations. Its also why rich people (e.g. aristocracy) love it because to be high class means to be educated, which means to listen to "high culture" and "educated" music. That's why the divide exists, because the music is inherently in a social stratification context.

What's most interesting is that the divide has been crumbling ever since rock and roll came onto the scene.

This thread has become entirely about me :dry:

And no, I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm just trying to say we can go back to topic! lol

On 7/13/2011 at 8:11 PM, Ferkungamabooboo said:

Not if you're a friggin composer. You can't just dismiss scraggy. That's not how learning or refinement of art and craft work. You HAVE TO be aware of everything. You HAVE TO find merit in everything. Not that it's your favorite; not that it's what you create necessarily; not even that you listen to it outside of an academic context. But you can't just be like "rap? more like crap amirite lololololololol :>" and be a serious, active, listening, growing participant in what you create. It's not that I am well-versed in jack, but it's that I can listen to bounce music and check out the rhythmic interplay; listen to techno and check out the timbres and types of sounds; whatever examples I give are moot, since it should be obvious to any student of music.

Yes you can. You do not have to acknowledge rap as music. You don't have to sit down and discuss the merits of a Justin Bieber or Justin Timberlake song. You can completely ignore it all and be a great composer, a great artist and a great mind. This mindless acceptation of everything being legitimate and equal is a huge part of what is causing a lot of our problems today in the world.

If you are going to sit at your computer and tell me that Eminem or Usher are as brilliant as Handel, Rachmaninoff or Barber and that there is not a difference between the types of music then we have a problem. I am not making any comment on peoples tastes. You can like whatever you like as far as I am concerned (be it for good reasons though), but I am making a value judgement. I am placing more value in Handel or Barber than in Eminem.

I never expected a reaction to my earlier comments like yours. I might not be as surprised about the general idea of the comment if it was not put so childishly, but for someone to get so uptight about it especially on a composers forum is really something.

Heckel, stfu, seriously.

You just asked a twelve year old kid who admitted, for the first time in this thread, that he may enjoy rock one day to shut the gently caress up. Nice. I'm sure you really opened his mind up with that one.

A genre does not have one damn effect on the quality or artistic merit of music. Sure, there's scrafty rock. There's scrafty classical. There's scrafty gamelan. There's scrafty everything.

If somebody does not like the defining aspects of a genre, you can bet he/she will not like most of the genre. You are talking as if there is no significant or real difference between genres when there obviously are.

Not if you're a friggin composer. You can't just dismiss scraggy. That's not how learning or refinement of art and craft work. You HAVE TO be aware of everything. You HAVE TO find merit in everything. Not that it's your favorite; not that it's what you create necessarily; not even that you listen to it outside of an academic context. But you can't just be like "rap? more like crap amirite lololololololol :>" and be a serious, active, listening, growing participant in what you create. It's not that I am well-versed in jack, but it's that I can listen to bounce music and check out the rhythmic interplay; listen to techno and check out the timbres and types of sounds; whatever examples I give are moot, since it should be obvious to any student of music.

Great, composers cannot dislike a particular genre now. Finding merit in something doesn't mean you have to particularly enjoy it you know.

Sure, you can't be an expert in everything, or even half of some things; but the patent dismissal of "pop" music is at the very least classist -- insert your favorite -ism for any others, I can at least think of one (oh dem niggaz, dey can't do nuffin rite! fuggin up dat old-tyme muzic with their negroe beats and infectin good white folk to lose thems culture in pop music in lieu of upstanding european compozers; kant evin build a guitar with a soundhole! how doez dat noize cum? an dere so crass -- all dey sing bout is violinse, secs, and hos!). I'm out of line here, for sure, especially as a WASP; but I can't explain the argument against "pop" in general as anything but a class/race thing. Please, convince me otherwise.

You don't have to be an arrogant douchebag to just not like something. You have to be to insist that somebody else HAS to enjoy something you do, and insulting the person otherwise.

Prove this statement right now. Sophisticated? What the hell does that even mean? Developed? Riiiiiiight. So is, say, classical metal more sophisticated than power metal from the same time, since it's more intentionally less base? City of Glass (and Stan Kenton in general) might make a killer case study.

I'll admit RRR's statement was inflammatory. But music composed from the classical tradition is more diverse and complex in terms of melody, harmony, form, and rhythm. This is an objective statement. "Pop" music, however, makes more use of timbre.

Also notice that, unless I am mistaken, nobody here has said that classical music is superior or anything. All we have is people giving personal opinions on music. If you can't get over that, then YOU stfu.

EDIT: I think RRR's last post may have just claimed the superiority of some music over another.

If somebody does not like the defining aspects of a genre, you can bet he/she will not like most of the genre. You are talking as if there is no significant or real difference between genres when there obviously are.

If you can't find SOMETHING to like in every genre, you aren't looking hard enough. That's all there is to it. For the longest time I hated rap/hip hop. But then I put aside my bias and noticed that Eminem was a loving brilliant artist. I still don't listen to him that often, but there is no denying his talent.

However, I wouldn't recommend him to a 12 year old.

Great, composers cannot dislike a particular genre now. Finding merit in something doesn't mean you have to particularly enjoy it you know.

You don't have to be an arrogant douchebag to just not like something. You have to be to insist that somebody else HAS to enjoy something you do, and insulting the person otherwise.

No one saying you have to like everything, and nobody is saying you have to have the same tastes as us. We're just saying that there is so much music out there and there is so much diversity in "pop" music that dismissing it ALL with the wave of a hand is beyond stupid.

I'll admit RRR's statement was inflammatory. But music composed from the classical tradition is more diverse and complex in terms of melody, harmony, form, and rhythm. This is an objective statement. "Pop" music, however, makes more use of timbre.

How are you defining pop music? There's plenty in rock and metal that is extremely complex. I'm assuming you are including both genres in your "pop" umbrella.

One thing I'd like to make note of: "pop" musicians all seem to like classical music. There's no elitism in pop that says you can't listen to classical, or jazz, or anything else (I'm a pop musician, and yet here I am). Most pop musicians draw from all of that. Why then are classical musicians such elitist douchebags?

If you can't find SOMETHING to like in every genre, you aren't looking hard enough. That's all there is to it. For the longest time I hated rap/hip hop. But then I put aside my bias and noticed that Eminem was a loving brilliant artist. I still don't listen to him that often, but there is no denying his talent.

Finding something good in a genre doesn't mean you have to particularly enjoy it.

No one saying you have to like everything, and nobody is saying you have to have the same tastes as us. We're just saying that there is so much music out there and there is so much diversity in "pop" music that dismissing it ALL with the wave of a hand is beyond stupid.

I don't remember anyone explicitly saying that all of a certain genre was bad. Just general statements about genres. When you insult somebody for not liking rock in general, that is kind of saying you have to have the same tastes.

How are you defining pop music? There's plenty in rock and metal that is extremely complex. I'm assuming you are including both genres in your "pop" umbrella.

Most of "pop" music is not as complex in the aforementioned ways as "classical". I have come across things that surprise me by it's complexity, but seriously, how often do you see things like: multiple key changes within a song, non-diatonic melodies, non-diatonic harmonies, odd and complex time signatures, development of themes, atonality, I could go on. Whereas anything done in "pop" music is done all the time in "classical" music (except for use of timbres, as I have mentioned). This is not to say one is better than the other, of course. Complexity does not make good music.

One thing I'd like to make note of: "pop" musicians all seem to like classical music. There's no elitism in pop that says you can't listen to classical, or jazz, or anything else (I'm a pop musician, and yet here I am). Most pop musicians draw from all of that. Why then are classical musicians such elitist douchebags?

I agree that there should not be an attitude that forbids listening to anything in any music circle. But the opposite also applies: you have to allow people to not like certain genres. In general.

Also, being open minded does not mean you have to like certain genres or all genres of music. You can open your mind, earnestly give the music a chance, and still not like it. Instead, it is close minded to insist that it is impossible for a person to genuinely not like something you like.

Also, being open minded does not mean you have to like certain genres or all genres of music. You can open your mind, earnestly give the music a chance, and still not like it. Instead, it is close minded to insist that it is impossible for a person to genuinely not like something you like.

:thumbsup:

I cannot even believe we are having this discussion.

Most of "pop" music is not as complex in the aforementioned ways as "classical". I have come across things that surprise me by it's complexity, but seriously, how often do you see things like: multiple key changes within a song, non-diatonic melodies, non-diatonic harmonies, odd and complex time signatures, development of themes, atonality, I could go on.

All the time. Seriously. Have you never listened to progressive rock or heavy metal? Go listen to Pink Floyd, Rush and Soundgarden and you will hear all of those things (and by the way, I purposely picked very popular artists there- there are plenty of less popular "pop" artists that have even more complex music than these three).

I agree that there should not be an attitude that forbids listening to anything in any music circle. But the opposite also applies: you have to allow people to not like certain genres. In general.

Also, being open minded does not mean you have to like certain genres or all genres of music. You can open your mind, earnestly give the music a chance, and still not like it. Instead, it is close minded to insist that it is impossible for a person to genuinely not like something you like.

I don't think I used the term "open minded." And yeah, I in general hate jazz. But there's obviously great jazz that I enjoy listening to sometimes. There's something good in every genre.

All the time. Seriously. Have you never listened to progressive rock or heavy metal? Go listen to Pink Floyd, Rush and Soundgarden and you will hear all of those things (and by the way, I purposely picked very popular artists there- there are plenty of less popular "pop" artists that have even more complex music than these three).

I'm genuinely interested. I enjoy some rock as well. Could you point out or link some of their songs that have that? I certainly don't hear these things when I turn on the radio.

I don't think I used the term "open minded." And yeah, I in general hate jazz. But there's obviously great jazz that I enjoy listening to sometimes. There's something good in every genre.

The open minded remark was from Phil. I'm not going to argue with this.

In plain simple English, I encounter more "scrafty" rock every day than "scrafty" classical.

That's because there's much more rock music than classical, simply because of the fact that anyone with a guitar can make rock music. Sure, classical has been around a lot longer, but it's not nearly as simple to create. I wouldn't even call rock "pop" myself. I'd call it folk. It's the folk music of white Western men, and evolved from the folk music of black American men.

If you can't find something to dislike in every genre you aren't looking hard enough either.

No scraggy. Most music sucks. Most everything sucks.

Simply because I do not actively listen to pop, rock, or what not does not mean I have some code of law that says "Thou shalt not listen to the music of the heathens lest thee be PUNISHED!"

Maybe YOU don't, but I'm pretty sure HeckelphoneNYC does.

let me ask you a question: how many of the preludes and fugues from the Well-Tempered Clavier are you familiar with? How many complete Beethoven's sonatas can you recall at your fingertips? Zero. How could you even presume to "like" classical music?

Because I can listen to it and enjoy it. It makes my ears feel good. Being familiar with something and being able to play it has absolutely nothing to do with liking it, at all, in any way, ever, period. I can't play 99% of the stuff I listen to, and if the same isn't true for you, you don't listen to enough music. I don't "understand" most of what I listen to in the sense that I haven't analyzed the melodies, harmonies, rhythms, etc. I listen to it and enjoy it. It takes no knowledge to like classical music. All it takes is a record player or a computer or whatever.

In the same vein I do not admit to be an expert at pop, or rock, or what not, and I will certainly not be so bold to claim to "seem" to like them! Some distinction must be made between liking a particular genre, accepting a genre for what it is with apathy, and disliking a genre to the extent of dismissing it entirely.

Sure. I LIKE classical, pop, rock, etc. You seem to "accept [pop] for what it is with apathy," and HeckelphoneNYC dismissed ALL pop entirely.

Claiming you like all music is like claiming you like plain chicken, bread or rice above all else - it's just pure nonesense, for such an individual must be bland beyond humanity!

Nobody here has claimed to like all music, as far as I see.

Maybe YOU don't, but I'm pretty sure HeckelphoneNYC does.

Uhhh no, I have people in my FAMILY that have rock, pop, and all that on all day long, and I will sit there with them and listen to 15 songs, and I don't like most of them. Sometimes I like the harmony in one, or a little melody that I'd go "ooh that would be nice on oboe" lol. I don't say to myself "Okay so now go ignore your family and be a little twit who won't listen to other music genres"

HeckelphoneNYC dismissed ALL pop entirely.

When did I say that? Now take a quote where I say "All pop is horrible and I hate it all and will never listen to it in my life and I hate hate hate hate it and blah blah blah" I said I might L. I. K. E. it when I am all grown up. Excuse me if that's dismissing all pop entirely.

Nobody here has claimed to like all music, as far as I see.

Uhh really? Nobody likes all music. I don't like all classical music! There's some classical that I just really don't like. Jazz I don't usually like, but that's just the melodies. The underlying harmonies I use in my music, and sometimes I have a little jazzy piece, and that can work. And almost never have I found a rock and roll piece I like, but I have found rock that I like. YES, I have. There are pieces that I enjoy, but my only problem with them is the orchestration, the people at the top of their lungs and the electric guitar and all that. But come on, I respect them and what they are doing.

When did I say that? Now take a quote where I say "All pop is horrible and I hate it all and will never listen to it in my life and I hate hate hate hate it and blah blah blah

You literally said that, just in fewer words:

Nope. I hate pop music.

Do you have any idea how much music you casually dismissed simply by saying you "hate pop?" Do you have any idea how large the world around you is?

Great. I "like" foie gras and caviar then. It looks great to me. Sounds just as delicious, too - liver from a goose fattened by being forced fed butter corn - simply divine! I could ALMOST taste it in my mouth! Who would have guessed - we have just discovered the "solution" to world hunger!

And only musicians like music now, right? Only chefs like food and only directors like films. Only mechanics like cars.

Good. Now stop insisting that other people like the music you like.

I've never insisted that. In fact, I literally said the exact opposite. Nobody is saying you have to like everything or have the same tastes as us.

All we're saying is that there are brilliant musicians who make brilliant music in every genre. That means rap, metal, and everything else you snobs plug your ears at. No genre is inherently bad and you can't just dismiss an ENTIRE GENRE of music that has more music in it than you could possibly listen to in your lifetime.

I did say I hate pop, however, I do NOT think that it isn't music, and I will listen to it, it's just that in POP, not ROCK, I have not really found music I like. Pop is pop, and it's also music, and I respect it.

And:

Nobody is saying you have to like everything or have the same tastes as us.

You probably haven't even hit puberty yet and your brain is not fully developed, so I guess I can forgive you.

;)

I've never insisted that. In fact, I literally said the exact opposite. Nobody is saying you have to like everything or have the same tastes as us.

That's ok, you're young, you still have plenty of time to discover the glory of rock music.

Why don't you think for yourself instead of listening to what your dad likes?

You probably haven't even hit puberty yet and your brain is not fully developed, so I guess I can forgive you.

*ding!*

*runs to grab popcorn from the microwave*

... feverishly memorizing the key of each Mozart symphony, ect.

Nono, you should be doing that too. Knowledge is power, power corrupts; Know stuff, be evil, etc. The disdain for "classical" among pop people is just as disgusting to me -- even if you write basic, three chord folk, you're clearly using analogous concepts to classical that can be applied (inversions, pacing, etc).

Of course there is "bad" music, however "bad" is defined; and of course genres are great mental shortcuts so that you center the way to look at the music, what have you, if you'd rather tailor your study to the style instead of a more holistic approach that might miss more meaningful aspects of the music -- I personally hold to the latter, but whatevs. But your shortcut should never be to "ignore" or "sucks" based solely on that level of differentiation. While on the one hand, this may seem like a proscription against proscriptions fallacy, it's again, not saying you have to like it. But to disregard something simply based on the type of music seems as silly as saying "Rondos are for weiners. I don't have anything to learn from this."

There is never a time when you can't look at something, study it, and learn something from it. Approaching a subject expecting nothing to be gained from it is a surefire way to gain nothing from it.