E Phrygian counterpoint

Hello my friends

In both examples bellow, the first one written by me and the second an the example taken from a counterpoint book, it seems that the counterpoints want to resolve to C, i.e. I feel tension in the ending in E. I thought it could be some error in my example but the same happens in the example from the book.

Do I need a new pair of ears of is it like this? :hmmm:

There is nothing wrong with your ears. Writing a good phrygian counterpoint is very difficult, just ending on E does not make your melody phrygian sounding. There are other characteristics of the mode which you must care about.

You probably know that each mode has a "final" and a "tenor" (reciting) note. For phrygian melodies, the final is E and the tenor is C. However, in polyphonic compositions the harmonic interval between E-C is a minor 6th, which is an imperfect consonance, the less perfect consonance in truth. For this reason the perfect 5th is used instead, either above the final (B) or below (A). B-F is a diminished interval so it is not used (In modern terms: the mode does not have a dominant harmony, only a subdominant).

Look at the attached examples.

The first one is from a phrygian mass by Palestrina. In the middle of bar 2, the composer avoids using a perfect close on C, he uses E (minor 6th) in the lowest voice instead, to avoid "mode of C" sounding you have complained about. The transition from bar 3 to 4 is also very common. An upper voice ("A") ascends from D to E while a lower voice ("T2") descends from F to E. You can find it in many counterpoint textbooks as "phrygian cadence". However Palestrina lenghtened the cadence here by a plagal movement in bass, possibly to avoid D-E parallel octaves with the Alto voice. The second attachment is a simplyfied version of the first, without the plagal movement.

So to make your counterpoint more phrygian sounding:

- try to emphasize notes E, B, A and C (in descending order)

- use the perfect 5th between E and B more (both harmonically and melodically)

- emphasize F -> E movement

- use note C as an upper neighbouring note (B-C-B)

Usually textbooks that have examples from real compositions are much better than those that have random examples by the author.

Good luck!

@Matt Thanks for the info! I've been wanting to try some modal work... I might do something in Phrygian now that I know a bit more!

There is nothing wrong with your ears.

That's good news!!! :nod:

You probably know that each mode has a "final" and a "tenor" (reciting) note. For phrygian melodies, the final is E and the tenor is C.

Well, I started learning theory one year ago. I have heard about this only a few days ago. The first term I've heard for tenor was repercusa which I believe are the same thing. I also know that at the beginning of times the Tenor was B but was later changed to C. So, as you can see, I'm no expert and I'm in my early stages of the process. :hmmm: Anyway, let's get on with it....let's learn a bit more!

However, in polyphonic compositions the harmonic interval between E-C is a minor 6th, which is an imperfect consonance, the less perfect consonance in truth. For this reason the perfect 5th is used instead, either above the final (B) or below (A).

As far as I understood, this perfect 5th is to be used in the last bar, instead of an 8ve of a unison, right?

Look at the attached examples.

I'm on first species yet, with two voices. But let's see these... :phones:

In the middle of bar 2, the composer avoids using a perfect close on C, he uses E (minor 6th) in the lowest voice instead, to avoid "mode of C" sounding you have complained about.

So, as far as I understood being the E the "Finalis" (or actual Tonic) and C the "Tenor" (actual Dominant), can I say that by using them I'm accentuating the Phrygian character (or sound) of the piece, and to avoid "falling in a mode of C" it's adviseable to use both harmonically in the middle of the piece?

I believe the same is valid for the F - E movement since the minor 2nd between the Tonic and the Supertonic is a unique characteristic of the Phrygian mode (I'm not considering Locrian here). Am I thinking correctly?

The transition from bar 3 to 4 is also very common. An upper voice ("A") ascends from D to E while a lower voice ("T2") descends from F to E. You can find it in many counterpoint textbooks as "phrygian cadence".

Yes, this is in my example, it's the major 6th in the penultimate bar.

However Palestrina lenghtened the cadence here by a plagal movement in bass, possibly to avoid D-E parallel octaves with the Alto voice.

I've studied Plagal and Authentic modes for the first time after reading your post. So, the movement D-A is plagal because it's a Fourth Down. Is this correct?

- try to emphasize notes E, B, A and C (in descending order)

Do you mean descending order in a melody or descending in order of importance?

Usually textbooks that have examples from real compositions are much better than those that have random examples by the author.

Yes, I think so too but I don't have a teacher to help me analyse them. If these simple examples of yours generated all thesequestions from me, imagine what would happen if the piece is longer. :toothygrin:

Nothing is wrong with your ears, it does sound like it wants to go to C. The first line is okay, but in the second, you are setting it up like C major. two Es in C is fine and it resolves to C and E, which goes to D and F, and goes down the scale. Now if I just heard those two bars, I'd say it was in C major. Perhaps ending it differently or re-arranging the notes would help it feel more E and less C. Remember this:

90% of the time, if it sounds right, it is right.

The first line is okay, but in the second, you are setting it up like C major. two Es in C is fine and it resolves to C and E, which goes to D and F, and goes down the scale. Now if I just heard those two bars, I'd say it was in C major.

Thanks for the reply HeckelphoneNYC.

However I would like to ask you to be more specific about what you think is wrong. I can't relationate what you're pointing with the staff (probably a language issue).

Thank you

As far as I understood, this perfect 5th is to be used in the last bar, instead of an 8ve of a unison, right?

In Phrygian, ending on perfect 5th often sounds better than ending on 8ve or unison, but it's just my personal opinion. If you have 3 or more voices, you can end on both (5th and 8th).

So, as far as I understood being the E the "Finalis" (or actual Tonic) and C the "Tenor" (actual Dominant), can I say that by using them I'm accentuating the Phrygian character (or sound) of the piece, and to avoid "falling in a mode of C" it's adviseable to use both harmonically in the middle of the piece?

The posted example is actually the last few bars of the piece. You may strenghten ionian (C ) or aeolian (A) character in the middle of the composition but you should return to phrygian at the end. That's why Palestrina avoids using full close (clausula vera) here on C.

I believe the same is valid for the F - E movement since the minor 2nd between the Tonic and the Supertonic is a unique characteristic of the Phrygian mode (I'm not considering Locrian here). Am I thinking correctly?

Yes, exactly! However you can't really emphasize that movement in classical "species" counterpoint, because you are allowed to use same note values everywhere. In real compositions, longer note values or note repetition are used, especially near cadences.

I've studied Plagal and Authentic modes for the first time after reading your post. So, the movement D-A is plagal because it's a Fourth Down. Is this correct?

Yes, it is a little "bybass" in the lower voices, while the sustained E on the top helps to stabilize the final.

Do you mean descending order in a melody or descending in order of importance?

Descending order of importance, of course. However you can push the composition towards C or A, but you should return to the original final E at the end of the piece, as I have mentioned above.

Yes, I think so too but I don't have a teacher to help me analyse them. If these simple examples of yours generated all thesequestions from me, imagine what would happen if the piece is longer. :toothygrin:

Having a teacher is good, but if you don't have one, you should use the best textbook you can access at least (local or school's library, internet...). Knud Jeppesen's book is a relatively good one, but a bit old. I'm sure that there are better books now.

However you can't really emphasize that movement in classical "species" counterpoint, because you are allowed to use same note values everywhere. In real compositions, longer note values or note repetition are used, especially near cadences.

Thanks for the reply, Matthaeus. :nod:

I didn't understood this one. Can you explain it?

Thank you.

In 1:1 (first spec.) counterpoint, textbooks usually allow to use only one note value, except the final one (which can be longer), and no repetition of notes. There's a tradition to use whole notes only, but it's a bit confusing now since whole notes was much shorter (4 or even 6 times!) at the time of the first "species CP" textbooks. So you should stick to quarters.

However, to emphasize the Phrygian character of your melody, you may need longer notes (Notes longer than a beat are almost always accented even if introduced on a weak beat).

The attached example shows the difference between two Phrygian melodies which differs only in the length of the last 3 notes. Try to sing (or play) them in a convenient (80-90) tempo. If you listen carefully, you may notice that while the first one sound a little "unfinished", the second one is much more complete.

In place of long notes, you can use note repetition, too. (See the 1st example from Palestrina, bar 3, in voice T2.)

Hope it's clear now.

Máté

Thanks for the reply HeckelphoneNYC.

However I would like to ask you to be more specific about what you think is wrong. I can't relationate what you're pointing with the staff (probably a language issue).

Thank you

Well, I can translate this to whichever language you're more comfortable with (with translator, which will kinda give an idea of what I'm saying) if you want, but:

The last two bars, the problem is the scale. You see, many times in counterpoint, the scale G-F-E-D-C would be used in the last two bars. The bass harmony you put under it (10ths, for the most part) really emphasized what in C major would be a V ii I V I, which is a good ending for C major. Now the problem here is that the D feels like it's leading into C, not E. when you have D and F, it sounds like it wants to go home to C major, but here it's going to E, which creates a "huh?" moment. You basically need to keep it sounding like it's going to E. Make the chords feel like they're home is E. Here might be a nice ending:

Soprano: B (quarter) C (quarter) D (half) E (whole)

Bass: G (half) F (half) E (whole)'

That's just a suggestion of mine. Hope this helps!