What to look for in Classical music

Hello YC’ers,

For the youngcomposerstube youtube channel I want to make a serie of video’s in which I sum up some things to listen to in certain pieces.

Maybe you guys can help me..

I will start a thread every now and then in which we can add/discuss what to look for in a certain piece of music. I wille edit your suggestions into a video and upload it.

I think this is very interesting for people who like classical music, but do not have a great deal of knowledge of the subject.

Why don’t we start right now!

What to look for in Beethoven Grosse Fugue op. 133..

What is special about this piece concerning:

- The story behind the piece?

- The harmonic language?

- The motive (and development thereof)?

- The form?

- Etc?

If you have anything to say about the piece just post a reply!

Oh god. Musical analysis. I don't want to sound like I'm saying it's bad to analyse music, but I seem to enjoy the music more when I understand it a little less. Even though it's good to study things in the way you describe, I just like to relax and let the music tell the story rather them me tell the music where all the inversions to the second motif are or how many nachschlags are used in each sequence in bars X to Y.

Oh god. Musical analysis. I don't want to sound like I'm saying it's bad to analyse music, but I seem to enjoy the music more when I understand it a little less. Even though it's good to study things in the way you describe, I just like to relax and let the music tell the story rather them me tell the music where all the inversions to the second motif are or how many nachschlags are used in each sequence in bars X to Y.

I've found the opposite to be true. Analyzing music allows you to get into the composers head and creative process. When you can find out about the motivations or frame of mind that a composer was in, and then pair that with what they used musically to "say" what they said, the music really starts to come alive.

"Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention." Sir Francis Bacon

You can replace books with music.

I've found the opposite to be true. Analyzing music allows you to get into the composers head and creative process. When you can find out about the motivations or frame of mind that a composer was in, and then pair that with what they used musically to "say" what they said, the music really starts to come alive.

"Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested: that is, some books are to be read only in parts, others to be read, but not curiously, and some few to be read wholly, and with diligence and attention." Sir Francis Bacon

You can replace books with music.

You have a pretty good point there actually.

Oh god. Musical analysis. I don't want to sound like I'm saying it's bad to analyse music, but I seem to enjoy the music more when I understand it a little less. Even though it's good to study things in the way you describe, I just like to relax and let the music tell the story rather them me tell the music where all the inversions to the second motif are or how many nachschlags are used in each sequence in bars X to Y.

I have trouble listening to music without a score. hahaha.

It's a big problem I have. Because I was raised from a very early age to read music and understand the sounds by what is on the page, I have trouble listening to music unless I am watching or I know every little bit about it. I like to completely understand the compositional process.

And, I KNOW I am in a minority here, and a lot of people don't like to listen to music that way for the reasons you mentioned. But, music theory and watching the music, seeing what has happened and what is to happen is MUCH more exciting to me than the actual sound. This is why a lot of people think I am weird.

There are a few pieces though, like John Williams music, where the full score just ISN'T available, and I have had to learn to love it without the scores. It can happen. But, if the option of a score is there, I will find it. And, I will use it. haha.

I agree with what Morivou said. I think we, as composers, should always listen to music with scores in sight to view. That's just how we are wired - we see things on paper and hear them in our head. Unless you're Mozart (or any of the other mutants who can hear music and instantly see the score in your head), that is.

Agreed. I think it is just like a writer of a book.

When we are writers, we naturally read other books in order to see how THEY wrote and what they were thinking when writing.

There are certain types of books that we read just for pleasure, and there are other pieces of writing we read to understand deeper concepts and creative constructs. Composers are the same way. We ARE the compositional process. Our lives are our music and our music is our lives. It's a beautiful thing, but is a sacrifice we have to make.

"There are a few pieces though, like John Williams music, where the full score just ISN'T available"

Morivou: If you need some JW full scores just PM me. I have a lot :D

"There are a few pieces though, like John Williams music, where the full score just ISN'T available"

Morivou: If you need some JW full scores just PM me. I have a lot :D

All you really have to do then is just look at the scores of the works ripped off. Good arranger, I might take a stab at his scores to see how he does it.

ripped off :D good joke :)

ripped off :D good joke :)

Who is joking?

I agree with what Morivou said. I think we, as composers, should always listen to music with scores in sight to view. That's just how we are wired - we see things on paper and hear them in our head. Unless you're Mozart (or any of the other mutants who can hear music and instantly see the score in your head), that is.

Its actually not that hard to visualize a score in one's head. Develop your inner ear and real-time analysis skills. I do that all the time.

Its actually not that hard to visualize a score in one's head. Develop your inner ear and real-time analysis skills. I do that all the time.

Funny, that's not what my theory teacher says. You should donate yourself to science, ye freak of nature.

And Phil: I'm not going to answer a question that has been answered so many times on this forum and other places - why waste my time.

That said, I think a good place to look at orchestration (and Tokkemon will agree with me on this) is Mahler. That's one of the things i DO study his scores for.

In Re: Williams is a hack,

I tried an experiment in High school. I played the very beginning of

without telling them who wrote it or where the music came from. Then I asked them where they thought from whence it came. At least 70% of them thought it was from a Star Wars score (specifically) while several more thought it was a John Williams score. Is that just ignorance of Mahler's music or a real similarity with the music? The Mahler was composed over 70 years before the Star Wars stuff.

Funny, that's not what my theory teacher says. You should donate yourself to science, ye freak of nature.

And your theory teacher knows all and therefore everyone in the whole world should bow to him/her because he/she teaches at a conservatory. Yeah, no. But thank you for rightly calling me a "freak of nature." :D

That said, I think a good place to look at orchestration (and Tokkemon will agree with me on this) is Mahler. That's one of the things i DO study his scores for.

Indeed!

And your theory teacher knows all and therefore everyone in the whole world should bow to him/her because he/she teaches at a conservatory. Yeah, no. But thank you for rightly calling me a "freak of nature." :D

Indeed!

Nah, he doesn't know it all. I do know though, that hearing multiple lines (like say an orchestral work) is extremely difficult to visualize fully - especially in your head on first listen, as you're implying. Not everyone is able to do that and thus, that is why it is good for us to have the scores in hand to view.

I never got the whole 'John Williams is a hack' idea.

I have yet to see any comparisons that really support the idea. A short fragment of Dvorak's 9th Symphony is often compared to his E.T. theme. Undeniably, the same is mood is capture but I'd hardly call it a 'rip off'. John Williams is a classically trained composer: if any intentional borrowing was done, I doubt he went about it with the idea of "oh I'm going to steal this from one of the most well known symphonies of all time and hope no one notices".

Jason, do you know of any works that support the idea? I mean: I hear all kinds of similarities to various pieces by Ravel in his soundtracks for the Star Wars series, but nothing I'd come close to considering a rip off (not the mention that Ravel was probably not the first composer to utilize the things that are similar).

The composer Michael Nyman, known for soundtracks to several Peter Greenaway films, often borrowed music from other composers. The music to 'Drowning By Numbers' gets its sources from the second movement of Mozart's sinfonia concertante for violin and viola. He even keeps Mozart's orchestration.

I agree completely with Phil on this one.

I think this might be the thread with the most off-topic post in ancient history, but that's alright. lol.

I always think it's funny how having a great inner-ear and great visualisation skills is sometimes considered the wholy grail of the compostion trade. I don't think it will automaticly make you a 'Mozart'. Althuogh I do think it's a very handy set of skills to develop. And it's damn funny to hear music in your head! It's a big goal of mine to develop it.

But, seriously: Is there someone who is willing to share some thoughts about Beethoven's Grosse Fugue?

Tokkemon: If you analyse it in your head what are some things that are interesting, revolutionary in your opinion etc.?

Well, the Grosse Fuge is definitely my favourite piece by Beethoven. When I first heard it I think I listened to it another six times after that. It is quite an amazing piece of music, and Beethoven's treatment of each motif in the double fugue makes it a magical experience when listening to it.