Orchestrating With Johann15

20th Century Orchestration Lessons.

Hi, Johann.

To start, I'd like you to answer me these please:

Have you written for orchestra ?

How do you feel about writing for orchestra ? looks very difficult, confusing, nah looks easy ... ?

You feel you don't know how to start ?, how to use instruments ?

You feel you do know the instruments and stuff just you haven't written anything yet ?

What kind of Orchestral music you like ? and would like to sound like that ?

Do you have orchestral scores ? Have you studied them ?

Have you written for orchestra ?

Kinda (I very recently made a pitiful attempt at a symphony).

How do you feel about writing for orchestra ? looks very difficult, confusing, nah looks easy ... ?

Looks beyond difficult, to the point of pain and frustration.

You feel you don't know how to start ?, how to use instruments ?

I start very similar in all my attempts (timpani intro, brass, etc.); I have absolutely no clue on how to use woodwinds, but I (at least, I think) am fairly capable of using strings and brass (and timpani).

You feel you do know the instruments and stuff just you haven't written anything yet ?

I feel I know how each instrument should behave with the rest of the orchestra, but, those ideas get lost in translation.

What kind of Orchestral music you like ? and would like to sound like that ?

Virtually all (tonal) types (like, I love the booming orchestral scores like Brahms's 3rd mvt 1, and the quite serene scores like Mahler's Adigietto); I would love to sound like that.

Do you have orchestral scores ? Have you studied them ?

No; I've glanced over a few scores online, but nothing extensive.

Aside these lessons, it will be very helpful to you that go and get some scores of the pieces you like, and see directly in the score how the composer could achieve what you're listening...

IMSLP

My Lessons will be about orchestration only, not form, Symphony is not an easy form to begin, you perhaps will be able to write one in the future, so I say a 3-5 minutes orchestral piece will be fine to begin, if you feel you currently don't material to start, I could give you a theme to orchestrate, but I will always give preference to your own ideas.

What notation software do use ? (I use Sibelius 7)

You will start using the minimum instrumentation for a complete orchestra, which will be:

2 Flutes

2 Oboes

2 Clarinets in Bb

2 Bassoons

4 Horns

3 Trumpets in Bb

3 Trombones

Tuba

Timpani

Violins I

Violins II

Violas

Cellos

Contrabasses

or this even smaller orchestra, but I recommend you start with the complete one unless you really feel is too much to handle.

2 Flutes

2 Oboes

2 Clarinets in Bb

2 Bassoons

2 Horns

2 Trumpets

2 Trombones

Tuba

Timpani

Violins I

Violins II

Violas

Cellos

Contrabasses

I'll continue with introducing the woodwinds for you, meanwhile you can start making a new file in your notation software for the ensemble you choose, keeping the instruments in the order I mention, using 1 staff for 2 flutes, 1 for 2 oboes etc, only in horns if you choose to use 4, create 2 staves for horns, and for 3rd Trumpet and 3rd Trombone you also may add a second staff.

I use Finale 2010, and I prepared a score. As for form, would an overture be fitting?

yes, overture is fine.

The woodwinds, well... all sections are just to give us more colors to use in our project, talking about all winds, we can simply determinate the Brass winds as louder instruments, (that usually require more breath) and woodwinds as softer instruments, (use less breath). Brass can sound very soft too, but woodwinds cannot sound very much loud, with the exception of the piccolo, due to its high range can produce a quite piercing sound quite clear even with the rest of the orchestra playing loud.

if you don't mind, I will quote myself from previous lessons where I have answered these questions:

[...] woodwinds are soft, but depends on their zone, usually sending woodwinds high in range is a solution to avoid drowning them. [1]

In Flute, the 1sr octave is very weak, sounds nice but very soft, completely lacks of power, 2nd octave is better, 3rd I'd say is equally loud but as higher the pitch is, easier to be heard within all the jungle, although, 3rd octave requires a fingering a bit less organized, so it becomes more difficult, you know in woodwinds you have a quite organized fingering expect in the highest notes you start making weird combinations of keys.

The range can be extended to low B by using a "B Foot", the foot is the last part of the flute tube, this B Foot comes with 3 keys instead 2, adding the low B, I think professionals have that B foot, but don't call for that note as a Flute sections, only in a solo, very likely one of them has not that "B Foot", but is a matter of hardware, not skills, some can add paper or something to make the flute longer but that's just a trick.

Flute has no octave key, to switch between octaves is an Embouchure issue. [2]

Piccolo is same as flute but without the lowest C key, range starts in D, also soft in first octave, but quickly becomes loud as you go higher and higher, of course, pitch zone also makes it noticeable, nobody else will be playing that high.

[1] We call drawn woodwinds where they are playing but they are not heard, making whatever you wrote for them simply useless

[2] Means you have the keys for C,D,E,F,G,A,B and to continue the next octave is exactly the same fingering on flute, just the player blows differently.

I think you will not require piccolo for the moment.

Oboe is a soft instrument too, maybe this one doesn't change too much from lower to higher octaves, just the effect of a higher note can be easier to distinguish when many instruments playing. Lowest C,B,Bb are possible only in mf or f < . Highest notes become very thin.

Comparing these two, oboe is louder in low notes than flute, but flute is louder than oboe in the 2nd and 3rd octaves.

questions ?

Clarinet can be loud in the highest notes, in has certain power in the lowest too, I'd say the middle zone becomes kinda weak.

In this range you gonna split it in two parts, 1s,t E2 to C4 (above middle staff line) and 2nd, B3 (middle line) to F5, that pic shows up to C6 but that's not truth, would be forcing the clarinet too much, F5, F#5 is a safe end of the range, G,G# thinking as a pro playing solo, never a Clarinet Section.

To switch from zone 1 (E2-C4) to zone 2 (B3-F#5) you have to move you left hand a bit, this is what we call "Break Point" segments calling for fast notes like and arpeggio is right in that break point, with lower notes of the arpeggio in zone 1, and high notes of it in zone 2, becomes annoying for the player, there is no problem if the arpeggio or fast passage is entirely on the 1 or in the 2, just not part in 1 part in 2. Nevertheless the problematic notes are few, Bb3,B3,C4 in zone 1 are played with left hand, and B3,C4,C#4 in zone 2 are also played with left hand, you do have additional keys to play them with right hand, so let's just say don't put the clarinetist to make circus movements. Write difficult things with in E2-C4 or B3-F#5, and reasonable "passing-through" segments between those zones.

Clarinet is loud in high notes, above G4 is very noticeable.

Clarinets in Bb and A are the same, just with different barrel, (part of the clarinet tube) so you can call for both, no problem at all.

For Bass Clarinet the break point problem is reduced because it has additional keys, it has at least a low Eb2 and D2 keys, (sounding C#1 and C1) other models have a C# sounding low B0. Those keys work also to cover the break point zone used as in 2nd octave.

Bass Clarinet is written sometimes as normal clarinet in treble key and sounding 1 octave and 1 whole tone lower. sometimes is written in bass clef

Transposition instrument, Bb Clarinet, will sounds 1 whole step down of what you write, so you always have to write 1 whole step up, if you want C major, you will write in D Major, (so it can sound where you want)

Confusing about the "break point" ignore it for now.

You will not require Bass Clarinet so far.

Clarinet in A, won't be used now.

Remember I'm linking range pictures, I didn't make them, and that range is too high, I'm clarifying High F or F# is where clarinet ends.

If I were to write, say, a duet for Flute and oboe, over string tremolo, I would write high for the flute, and mid to low for the oboe? And the clarinet can be low and powerful like a bassoon, high and fluttery like a flute, but it's best for mid range in solos?

Also, can I think of the wood winds as the "infantry" of my orchestral "army"?

When I said Flute is weak on first octave I mean with the rest of the orchestra playing, but a duet with oboe I think flute can play anywhere, first octave sounds very nice actually, and 1 oboe makes no problem.

clarinet can be low and powerful like a bassoon ?

No, the low clarinet notes (low A;G,F,E) have certain edge on its tone, but Bassoon still wins in the low notes (and of course the lower range), in the high notes it is louder and more noticeable, but still flute is more and higher in range, so I'd say to think in your clarinet as your woodwinds viola, solo clarinet can be any range, clarinet is not difficult to control (except highest F,F#;G) that can sound properly only in mf <

Bassoon is quite homogeneous in range, pitch and volume not very loud though, Oh, and just don't write acrobatics in the lowest Eb,D,C#,C,B,Bb.

Same for Contrabassoon, a bit louder overall.

can I think of the wood winds as the "infantry" of my orchestral "army"?

Could be yeah, they can be pretty important too, I just think their role changes when brass is present or not, since they are softer that brass, importance of woodwinds is always determinate by a good balance of what everybody is playing.

Balance:

Each instrument has its own character in timbre, abilities, and loudness, you will learn to judge the importance of your motifs, harmony elements, melodies, counter melodies, and you'll choose the proper instrument to play each one of those elements of sound.

If a weak instrument is chosen to express something is important for transmitting the idea, it won't work well, same case with powerful instruments playing "decoration" stuff.

D: Powerful lines doing what small should do.

E: Powerful lines keeping the strong structure, small lines keeping "decoration", additional lines to complete the idea.

May I know what instrument(s) do you play ?

about your question in the chat about snare drum:

Percussion it a very colorful section, it will probably not describe on its own an important part of your music (like harmony, feeling) but it will certainly help you to enhance, and improve whatever is the feeling you're treating. Sad to Sadder. Happy to Happier, Dramatic to More Dramatic etc...

All percussion usually have a very soft - very loud range in volume, (except Celesta, considered a percussion). This section will give you a much wider variant of timbres, than if you don't use anything but timpani. Percussion can merge with other instruments and create those new timbres, FX, etc,

People may think some percussion have already his defined character and can't be used for something else, like Snare drum sounding to war, battles etc, or Glockenspiel sounding Christmas... That's doesn't have to be right.

Percussion has suffered for the lack of knowledge by the composers, usually lack of information in the scores, for instance, the Tam-Tam, wow, this is an instrument can't be left uncared, because either can easily make your piece brilliant, can also ruin it all in a second.

Composers never specify the size of it, the mallet to be used, if let it vibrate or not, or how long, all of this is left to the percussionist, and most of the times, they choose a correct decision in everything, but not always, sometimes even conductor forgets about percussion and let the tam-tam play mp when it should have been f, or f when it should have been p, let it vibrate when it should have being stopped after 2 tempos, or stopped carefully in > not that abrupt, etc etc.

All this can be avoided if you write it in the score. by simply adding slurs and short indications.

Snare drum also can sound in many ways, but is only called "Snare Drum," .. "ok, bring a snare drum, any drum.."

Suspended cymbals if must be played with a mallet (felt stick) sounding softer or with a bachetta (without felt, direct wood) or maybe other thing like a metal beater.

Xylophone can be played with felt mallet, sounds smoother and nice, not always has to be that piercing....

Vibraphone, (this one can't use very hard sticks or you'll damage) but if the vibrato fan must be on or off, or how fast...

In short, you have to say how do you want your percussion or don't surprise if suddenly sounds different of what you had in mind.

Unpitched drums:

Snare Drum:

possible variants are with or without the snare wires (without them sound more like a simple tom), (specify only if its "without")

if ... you want a piccolo snare drum, metion it (try searching in YouTube for these things, to listen)

Bass Drum:

if must be left vibrating (a slur to nowhere)

if you want a very deep sound, you can just call it "deep" or if you want a dry hit, (with a harder and smaller mallet)

Pair Cymbals, if must be left vibrating.

Suspended cymbals, which one (if no specify, will be the same in pair, or a crash one) if a different one, DO specify ("Ride" usually bigger, sounding less bright, "Splash" smaller, sounding a small crash, "Chinese" "Sizzle" "Ride bell" etc.

Tam-tam,:

available in many sizes, you will only have 2 or 3 choices, if you don't specify any size, will be played with a 28' Tam-tam or close to that size, this is a versatile tam-tam, brilliant in the ff, deep in pp.

When specify sizes I recommend ledt a range, like 30'-34' meaning can be used any of 30',32',34'.

As larger the Tam Tam is, deeper will be its sound, and to make it sound bright you will have to hit it more and more forte, will give you many deep sounds but will be unable to sound bright unless is ff. or fff.

Smaller tam-tams like 26' 24' will have no very much deep sounds, but will be able to give you bright sounds without having to make it in fff.

Chose (24),26,28,30,32,34 inches in diameter.

Good conductors, use several tam-tams (as in cinematic) even if the score only calls for 1, those are good conductors care about avoiding unwanted sounds.

(sorry I just copy/paste :D but... )

Ok, thank you for the clarification. I play viola and violin.

The score http://www.box.com/files/0/f/178808691/1/f_1349476335#/files/0/f/178808691/1/f_1349472485

The audio file http://www.box.com/files/0/f/178808691/1/f_1349476335#/files/0/f/178808691/1/f_1349476335

Aaaam, sorry, wrong link, don't copy the current link on your browser because that's your page as user seeing your own files, you have to like "Share" on the file and it gives you an URL to share, that one is what I need to see it.

Thanks.

Sorry :facepalm:

Score: http://www.box.com/s/f0rpr8envkzomrbqa5v5

Audio: http://www.box.com/s/z9lo6xrpqpm5htagfqvg

Hey,

Ok, here is where my intervention begins, I will handle it like this:

Type 1) What must be changed:

Things are "wrong" or "impossible", by "wrong" I mean exactly that, something like 2+2=5, wrong no matter our personal preferences, and "impossible" well, what simply can't be played like it's written.

Type 2) What should be changed:

Things are not "wrong" or "impossible" but there are a lot of reasons to avoid doing this, it can simply be something close to impossible, or it goes against of what it's been defined by years and years of work by composers before us and it's simply not very wise to keep doing.

Type 3) What could be changed:

Mere suggestions by me, based of course in my personal taste, I will try not to influence you too much, but some influence will have to happen, there's no way to avoid it completely.

Ok, now, our goal is to eliminate type 1 errors, completely eliminate them, as soon as possible, then the type 2 ones.

Type 1:

If you choose to use trumpets in C, it's fine, maybe is better like that for now, this is the trumpet range (excuse me the graphic size, I'm not yelling to you, it's just I only link from other pages)

but you won't write careless on all it's range, winds are not like keyboards where is equally easy to press a center key on piano or press the highest C, winds are another world. That range is in real notes, if your trumpet is in C, well the range is exactly that one. Lowest E,F,F#,G,G# will be difficult to obtain on pp,ppp, if it's not very pro the trumpetist won't play them unless is mf, then A to high G is perfectly fine at all dynamics and speeds, highest G#,A,A#,B,C will be again difficult to obtain if you don't blow more than mf, a very very pro will play the highest C on pp but never trust that much.

Now at m.73 those notes are out of range, (remember you have flutes), notes above highest C are possible but very difficult, C#, D, maybe, but no more, Jazz players sometimes make effects playing higher notes, but is usually an effect not to establish a melody, actually once I did reach some very high notes on the trumpet (that I had to sold because I couldn't play it, I already play several winds) but it was like a miracle haha, and of course, not to do it again, or control it. High C is where your trumpet ends.

Type 2:

Contrabasses are too high all the time, is not impossible but nobody wants to play like that, for now, keep the basses on the staff, select all and move it 2 8va lower, your orchestra is not very big now, Tuba won't be playing all the time, so Contrabasses are the support of your sound, don't leave your house without floor.

It seems you forgot Horns, you're gonna need them, add 2 staves between Bassoons and Trumpets.

Type 3:

the beginning can be that A on cellos from the first measure, the contrabass can start at m.2 or as a suggestion, you can start that A on timpani roll, and then you have all strings free to play what you want is up to you, but for now, use the Contrabasses where they sound better, and as a common sense, not above cellos.

I feel you're gonna need also the 3rd Trumpet and 3rd Trombone.

Additional ranges just in case:

Violin:

above that high G without the 8va----¬ (the last octave) the space in the fingerboard is very small, a tiny difference makes a G sound G# or A things like that, never write things are too close one from the other because people fingers are bigger, for now I would say to keep that range without the 8va----¬ as a safe violin range.

Viola:

same story, a bit less small.

Cello:

no problem with finger size but consider not to write too high for too long.

Contrabass:

This big violin requires strong fingers, high notes are hard to play even for people used to that, sound is not very nice in the highest octava, the good bass sound to sustain the string section is produced by the E or A strings, so that means from middle line D to down.

I also give you the Horn range:

This one is written in F, you write the red notes but it sounds the blue notes, it always sounds a fifth below, the lowest notes require more breath, the highest C#,D,D# specially E and F, (written G#,A,A#, B and C) are very difficult, require a lot of lip pressure, hard to play in that area for long passages, very difficult softer that f, you still have a nice middle range to fill harmony in brass and play melodies, all you want.

Use the woodwinds, Bassoon can play Bassline for now.

I listen some Bruckner here, I recommend you go to the site I told you, and see if you can get the scores of Symphonies 3,4,5,7,9. Youtube for audio.

Ok, we will try something easier, I'll give you so material ot orchestrate.

In this PDF:

• 1st page, I include the ranges of all instruments.
  
• 2nd page, an example of the instrumentation you must specify in any orchestral score, you can add it in the 2nd page after the big title, in this page and in the following example you can remove the Piccolo, English Horn, Bass Clarinet and Contrabassoon, also add/remove percussion.
  
• 3rd page, a theme I wrote just like that, not very good but something to work with, is not a piano piece, just an idea.
  
• 4th page, I started the orchestration, very simple but correct, now I want you try to continue, just let me clarify something
  

1. You don't have to use all instruments all the time, I did in the introduction but you can use only what you want, you can even re-write that intro.
   
2. You don't have to follow my idea (piano score) exactly like I wrote it, you can modify anything.
   
3. You don't have to limit to the idea, you have an entire orchestra to play, you can add stuff is not in the original idea.
   
4. You CAN create your score in concert pitch if transposing instruments is a problem to you right now, (Bb and F instruments)
   

Notice:

My woodwinds are a bit drowned, it's normal when beginning, try to make them heard, but you don't have to write complex textures for now.

Horns don't have to play different notes all the time, you can make the 4 play the same and construct a loud clear line everyone will hear, and then perhaps split again etc, same with other instruments.

Violins play inner voices of the harmony, but high and clear, automatically creating a counter-melody.

All instruments playing in safe ranges, no problem at all for any of them

recordings:

Theme in piano.

Beginning of orchestrated version.

I hope this will help you, Happy New year btw :)

EDIT:

I forgot, you can change the 8va in all notes, those lowest A won't be available on any instrument of course, some line can be 8va higher or lower or whatever...

Take your time.