OK discussion Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto

Now here is a discussion/survey.

What would you say is the form of the 1st movement of the Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto - First movement ONLY.

My first time listening to it in a long time ...

a monothematic sonata form - but unusual as it is a fine example of what Schoenberg spotted in Brahms - his habit of continuous variation. Nothing really comes back in its original form. What helps keep this cohesive is the almost Baroque use of sequential patterns periodically to get somewhere harmonically or a more modern use - to re-represent a motive in a different light, probably acknowledging the incipient impressionistic trend emerging (the concerto was written in the 1880's about the time of Listz's late, radical piano pieces) in his ocassional use of harmonic alteration seemingly solely for color. I do not think Brahm intended to do this but he does extend these sequences or harmonic re-representations to such an extent that it is coloristic. It differs from Wagner in that there is less dramatic alterations of a series of leitmotifs going on - plus the harmony is less daring than some Wagner.

My ears cannot tell you exactly the harmony - except moving to major/minor or a bit of diminished harmony here or there. Here is a recording:

It is one of my favorite pieces of Brahms because he allows himself to get dramatic!

I'm wondering why you find this monothematic. Certainly the primary theme is most obvious but I see the material of the quasi-cadenza after the first statement of the primary theme to be a kind of amoebous secondary theme. Since it's mostly rhythmic, I personally think how he develops the second theme is what ties the piece together and lets it go on for so long.

I think Brahms uses some nice orchestration in this piece too, but it's very ordinary. I agree about the use of color change in this piece. I quibble with the idea that he was borrowing from the early beginnings of Impressionism. I see this piece as kind of its own coloration of a typical Classical-form piano concerto. It has some Romantic tendencies (for example harmonic color change just for the hell of it, and how rhapsodic it seems to the listener) but I still think it's very clear-cut in structure and form. The use of an broad and expansive primary theme, with a rather truncated and rhythmic second one allows for several developmental sections without losing interest. The result is a mammoth first movement along the lines of the Tchaikovsky Violin concerto or the Dvorak Cello concerto, but this piece handles the length much more effectively than either of those pieces simply by using those juxtaposed theme styles.

I love this piece (it's probably one of my favorites of Brahms too), and I especially love the 3rd movement with the mini cello concerto since I'm a cellist.

Well, I consider it monothematic, only because the second theme you refer to in comparison to the first seems to arise from the first. Also the several sequences Brahms throws in there really help to blur the profile of the second theme which as you said is truncated and quite rhythmic. So to my ear I really don't hear upon FIRST listening a clear cut second theme.

I got a little carried away with the reference to Impressionism. What I meant is due to this being written in the 1880's, Brahms had to be aware of some the early experiments in Impressionism. And I point out he doesn't use changing harmonies just for the sake of color, BUT due to the numerous sequences and some interesting and rather extended modulations, it is as if in a more Classical framework he achieves a similar effect once in awhile. But good point, when discussing Brahms one has to be very careful about stylistic influences. Like Bruckner, there are some very advanced foreshadowings in Brahms music which yet cannot be said to betray the conservative nature of his music in comparison to some of his contemporaries.

Also, this discussion I set-up to discuss initial thoughts on the form upon first hearing or hearing a piece after a long absence.

Oh yeah, and the 3rd movement, talk about a tearjerker with the cello part.

And thanks for the insightful, thoughtful comments. Can't wait to here more

I am in love with brahms, and this concerto is awesome indeed. it is his drama that I am so very fond of, its almost his trademark, dark, gloomy music. So I do not entirely see how this 'allowing himself to get dramatic' is different from say sym1, piano concerto 1, or about any other symphony or concerto of his...

I have to take some time to llsten to it again. for now i'm just dropping by to let you know i'm following this thread. ;)