Compositions Postings And Scores

Hello All,

Browsing the site, it seems that my topic has been discussed here at several occassions. Nonetheless, I would like to "re-open (?)" the case. Lately, at an increasing speed, there seems to be more and more postings which are done without a score being added.

I know, by reading the older postings regarding this topic, that there are people who defend this attitude by stating that it is game or film music. I do not know much about this of music, so I am not going into discussion. Yet, most the large orchestral, chamber, piano and choral sections are generally those were the more "serious" (no offence ment) is being offered. It is astonishing how many positings there are who do not have a score. To be honest, I think it is not only a bit frustrating that there are people who are so paranoic as to not have the courtesy of offering a score - even a messy or a handwritten one as is the case for a recent posting about three sonatines - just because .... yes for what reason actually... that one would steal their music?

I think it should be made obligatory on this site that if you want to post your music, you at need also to post a score. For those who are afraid of having their music 'stolen', let me tell you that it would take a trained ear but a few minutes to write down the notes which he/she hears, so... you could as well not have your music put on here in a MP 3 either.

Why a score is needed?

Firstly, out of respect for your fellow-composers who are on the site. If you do not post a score, you give the impression you treat them as morrons, as ignorant asses who are not able to read what you write.

Secondly, it is always nice to be able to read at the same time as you are listening. Sometimes the music rendition is so poor that a score is helpfull in understanding what is played (I found at least one case like that, by just browsing through the site). Furthermore, one cannot always hear clearly the orchestration and for those who state they can... I challenge them to write out some parts of La Valse or Ma Mère L'Oye by Ravel, or some parts of the Fontana or Pini di Roma by Respighi to give only two examples. No, one cannot.

Thirdly, having a score is much more accurate as to pointing out what is wrong either in orchestration or in technical settings. Indicating "about such and such time" leaves open a very vague area of speculation.

Fourthly, those people who say that they are not prepared to post a score as it is still too messy or not good enough.... well, if your score is messy, your music is problably too... If you think we need to review your music only partly finished, why not give us a messy or partly finished score. Better half a spoon to eat a plate of soup as no spoon at all.

Now, as to the board of this site: I can imagine that there will be a lot of people who will not agree with me as well as their will be a lot of people who agree. Cannot you figure out some kind of code that could be used ( a sign put in front of the title) indicating a score is present or not. It would make life a lot easier, for those who only read posting with scores.

Thank you in advance

Wolfgang Sachs

It's no big deal. Simply refrain from commenting on uploads without scores or request the addition of scores.

Making it a requirement to upload a score will do more damage than anything. There are legitimate reasons to leave one out.

I've written plenty of stuff (granted, mostly not in a classical style) where I never bothered creating a score, and just recorded the parts directly into a DAW. But I also appreciate how difficult that would make it for a reviewer.

While I wouldn't advocate making a sore a requirement, I do rather like the idea of giving the reviewer some type of advance indication in the interface of whether a piece has a score or not. That much, at least, seems like a common sense courtesy.

Well, at least it would be, as calebhines states, a form of courtesy as to those who go to the different pages. One looses a heck of a lot of time opening pages to come to the conclusion one can just as well close them again as there is no score present. If a score cannot make obligatory - do not clearly get as to the why of that, but I can conceed to it - it still would be nice when one could see when opening the music directory which scores are with and which scores are without an indication.

This said, when looking at the sibeliusmusic or finale showcase site, no postings are done without scores... When it is a rule there, why cannot it be a rule here? Admittedly, these two mentioned sites are the forums of the programs, but nevertheless...

Kind regards

W.S.

If you do not post a score, you give the impression you treat them as morrons, as ignorant asses who are not able to read what you write.

I hardly think this is the case. You have to realize that many people work exclusively in a sequencer-type setting; producing a notated score is simply impractical and unnecessary.

True, some things are easier to review and critique more specifically with a score, but that should hardly prevent you from reviewing "by ear".

As the uploads moderator, I had to deal with this very issue in the Code of Conduct. I did not require a score, nor did I require a recording. The main reason is simply practical. In today's technology-filled world of composing, many people use sequencers and DAWs to create the sound rather than create a score for musicians to play. The end music file is the music itself, not the eventual score's performance. This is most prominent in "Game and Film Music" where an orchestra is not available. Besides, these are laudable skills, turning a preconceived "score" in the composer's mind into a tangible music file. So I don't want to limit that kind of creativity.

However, the natural argument against this is in "concert" works where the music is intended to be played by real people. In this case there are composers who don't know how to compose to a score. Its rare but it does happen. If they want to be reviewed but are unable to produce a score, why should we, as reviewers, hold that against them? That's not very nice on our part. However, if I see a piece without a score, I usually will ask the composer to post one. If they do, super, then we can review more accurately. If not, ho hum, there's not much we can do. Requiring the score is not helpful to anyone except the reviewer who is too impolite to ask the composer to post one.

In short, to be polite, post of a score if it exists. If not, we won't judge you publicly. :)

BTW, I find that whole argument about people not posting scores because they're worried of them being stolen is laughable. To be frank, no score(or rather, very few scores) on YC would be "worth" stealing. None of us are big-name composers nor are as experienced as them. Their music is much more sought-after than some guy on the internet. IOW, calm da ef down already. Its just da interwebz.

While I wouldn't advocate making a sore a requirement, I do rather like the idea of giving the reviewer some type of advance indication in the interface of whether a piece has a score or not. That much, at least, seems like a common sense courtesy.

I actually requested this very feature to Mike. I don't think it ever got off the ground. Probably because its not a "priority."

Wolfgang, you hit everything on the head!

I read with interest the postings made here with regard to the topic I started. I can understand - perhaps even agree - with some of the elements which have been put foreward here; I even could agree with the element of improvisation which is - by the mere meaning of the word - not a compositional form for me but that is a totally different discussion depending on what one considers composing music; a discussion which is not the topic of the current thread. Opposite to TOKKEMON who states "The end music file is the music itself, not the eventual score's performance. ", I am the opinion that a score is very much part of musical composition. Not producing a score would be the same as a writer who just narrates the stories which emerge in his head, but never writes them down, or someone who claims to be a builder but only builts a house in his mind not using building materials. I do not think that you would consider a person a writer when he does not write down a single word or somebody a builder when he does not built a house with bricks but only in his mind.

One can, of course, browse through the entire list of new posted scores and close those again which do not have a score added to the posting, which is very time consuming and I do not think that that is the main objective of this site. What astonishes me is the mere growth of people who do not post a score. When this would be limited to only a section of the site - the section mentioned by one of the mods as "Game and Film Music", I still could understand, but ... it seems to have become a general rule to put some music foreward but not post a score. Are we to go to a music culture where scores are to become obselete? If so, we are entering the world of one of my examples: the one where the builder builts a house without actually using building materials. I guess that we could also abolish courses like practical harmony, countrepoint or fugue writing because these corner stones of musical knowledge are, then, not longer necessary - and we could all spend our time on other, more interesting (?) things.

I admit I am not the best of composers on this site - far from it - but I always thought we were all here to learn from eachothers music, from eachothers mistakes, from eachothers successes....at least I have. When the music of the members published here is only to become limited to a soundfile, I can as easily limit myself to daily visiting sites such as youtube and listen to the new files which are uploaded there; the difference between You Tube - or any other such site - and this one, where the apogee lies on exactly having a score at hand as well as a musical file - becomes non-existant... hence the other posting I made regarding similar sites to this one, where posting a score is needed. I could understand the absence of scores if we all were still to produce handwritten scores, but I guess that on a rare occasion, everyone here writes their music with some or other music notation program which easily allows you to make a PDF file.

In short: I would really plee to have if not a score posted together with a music file at least some kind of recognition sign put in front of those files which have both elements, rather then only a music file or a YouTube movie which, in short, adds little to what once was the main objective of this site.

Kind regards

W.S.

Wolfgang & others,

Your concerns are, have been, and will continue to be well noted by the staff on this subject. It comes up frequently enough that we have discussed ideal ways of addressing the situation, but the best case scenario remains that we implement a system that displays whether or not a posted work includes a score; we feel that having a visual reference would make it easy for those who care to know which topics they can feel comfortable replying to and which they should avoid.

The fact remains, however, that the "need" for a score represents only one particular way of appreciating musical content, and it's one that not all people — professional, student, and otherwise — will hold as important, let alone crucial, regardless of genre. We cannot, as a site that caters to all manner of musicians, implement a policy that makes it mandatory to appreciate music in one particular way. It's just not going to happen, no matter how many times it's asked for by vocal members who strongly believe that it is the best (and sometimes the ONLY) way that music can be legitimately represented.

You remain welcome to your opinions and we want to do our best to make the experience of posting and reviewing on YC as comfortable as possible for everyone, but just as we must respect the needs of a variety of members, you must understand and respect the fact that your views on the relative merits of a posted score are individual and cannot be applied as a requirement to everyone on the site simply because you view them as a necessity. We have never required a score to be posted, and the fact that more and more people are choosing not to reflects changes in the landscape of music itself, not in our policies.

If you feel that your needs as a student of music are not being adequately served here, then we will continue to work toward making it a better place for you, but please keep in mind when you make requests that your opinions are not universally applicable, no matter how educated and well intentioned they may be.

Thank you!

Wolfgang & others,

Your concerns are, have been, and will continue to be well noted by the staff on this subject. It comes up frequently enough that we have discussed ideal ways of addressing the situation, but the best case scenario remains that we implement a system that displays whether or not a posted work includes a score; we feel that having a visual reference would make it easy for those who care to know which topics they can feel comfortable replying to and which they should avoid.

The fact remains, however, that the "need" for a score represents only one particular way of appreciating musical content, and it's one that not all people — professional, student, and otherwise — will hold as important, let alone crucial, regardless of genre. We cannot, as a site that caters to all manner of musicians, implement a policy that makes it mandatory to appreciate music in one particular way. It's just not going to happen, no matter how many times it's asked for by vocal members who strongly believe that it is the best (and sometimes the ONLY) way that music can be legitimately represented.

You remain welcome to your opinions and we want to do our best to make the experience of posting and reviewing on YC as comfortable as possible for everyone, but just as we must respect the needs of a variety of members, you must understand and respect the fact that your views on the relative merits of a posted score are individual and cannot be applied as a requirement to everyone on the site simply because you view them as a necessity. We have never required a score to be posted, and the fact that more and more people are choosing not to reflects changes in the landscape of music itself, not in our policies.

If you feel that your needs as a student of music are not being adequately served here, then we will continue to work toward making it a better place for you, but please keep in mind when you make requests that your opinions are not universally applicable, no matter how educated and well intentioned they may be.

Thank you!

I have read your posting with the utmost attention. I fully understand and agree to the fact that this site is indeed for everybody. As said in my previous posting I can understand that there are circumstances for which no score is required and that it is upto the person who posts something to add or do not add a score. Nevertheless, I am glad to read the first paragraph of your answer that - if I understood it correctly - you a considering to add a visual reference whether or not a posting contains a score or not, which is a good solution as it keeps everybody happy: those who would like to see a score, as I, and those who believe a score is not needed. If the first group decides to consult a posting of a member who has not added a score, it is at that time there own decision; there will be clear indications whether a posting contains or does not contain a score. I, and I guess also several other people, will be more than happy with that solution. Thank you for the attention given to this topic.

Kind regards

W.S.