Horns And Bass Clarinets: Do They Mix?

Here's a question for any horn and clarinet experts:

I'm fascinated by the way one horn and one bassoon harmonize to sound just like two horns. Could this also work with one horn and one bass clarinet? Or is the bass clarinet just too imposing not to dominate the horn? (Maybe requiring its part to be marked one dynamic down?)

You see, I'm arranging a theatre piece that requires both woodwind players to double on alto sax, and I'm guessing I can more easily contract a good bass clarinet-alto sax doubler than a good doublereed-sax doubler. (Parenthetically, am I right about this? How much more common are bass clarinettists than bassoonists anyway?)

As a matter of fact, I do play clarinet. I would say that bassoon is a little more common because bassoons and bass clarinets can be given the same part in a piece. In other words, I am saying that in an orchestration, you would rarely see both instead of one because depending on the type of piece, bassoon may better blend than a bass clarinet and vice versa. Bass clarinet and Alto Sax could go together, but bass clarinet and Baritone Sax are a way better go together because of their low register. SO I would but together regular Bb clarinet and alto sax. Need anything else just ask! ^^

this is about orchestration only or finding a performer of two different instruments ?

in orchestration anything can merge, a Piccolo with Tuba for instance..

in Performers, finding a person who plays Clarinet and Saxophone is more common, but Bassoon and Saxophone won't be easy to find, Bassoon has nothing to do with Saxophone, I play Saxophones and Clarinet but I have no idea how to play a bassoon and I don't own a bassoon, if you call for a single player to play Bassoon and Sax, that will be a mistake in your score.

I will name the only doubling could be used, without worries

Clarinet / Saxophones

Trombone / Euphonium

Horn / Wagner Tuba

& not so common but no problem:

Tuba / Euphonium

and of course, things like Piccolo/Flute, Oboe/Enlgish Horn, Bassoon/Contrabassoon.

sax and oboe probably too, since they have the same fingerings.

Bsn and horn are known for their ability to blend well. but so are clarinet and bsn. Clarinet and horn might just work, although you have to be aware that the lower chalmeau register ofthe clarinet blends less (at least in loud dynamic range).

this is about orchestration only or finding a performer of two different instruments ?

in orchestration anything can merge, a Piccolo with Tuba for instance..

in Performers, finding a person who plays Clarinet and Saxophone is more common, but Bassoon and Saxophone won't be easy to find, Bassoon has nothing to do with Saxophone, I play Saxophones and Clarinet but I have no idea how to play a bassoon and I don't own a bassoon, if you call for a single player to play Bassoon and Sax, that will be a mistake in your score.

I will name the only doubling could be used, without worries

Clarinet / Saxophones

Trombone / Euphonium

Horn / Wagner Tuba

& not so common but no problem:

Tuba / Euphonium

and of course, things like Piccolo/Flute, Oboe/Enlgish Horn, Bassoon/Contrabassoon.

Those instruments can all merge with more than just those. Clarinet can merge with flute, if done right, it is very elegant and beautiful. Take the piece Morpheus by Robert W. Smith. He used a flute and a clarinet to make an amazing sound. I thought it was flute on flute till looked at the score. And like I said, Bassoon is a little more common because it isn't a derivative of the clarinet, therefore it may be more likely that the composer uses bassoon instead to get the same notes wit h diverse tones. Right?

sax and oboe probably too, since they have the same fingerings.

Bsn and horn are known for their ability to blend well. but so are clarinet and bsn. Clarinet and horn might just work, although you have to be aware that the lower chalmeau register ofthe clarinet blends less (at least in loud dynamic range).

I agree with this guy.

Many thanks for the good tips, guys.

Alright, so here's my big question: If I wanted to chuck my second horn and substitute a bass clarinet for it, could the bass clarinet harmonize smoothly [enough] with the horn on top, or would it overpower the horn at high volumes?

Interesting insight, Jcramer. Since you mentioned the Bb clarinet blending less well in the lower chalmeau (something I've feared myself) is that because it sounds less sonorous down there or just because it's so quiet in that range that the horn would drown it?

Those instruments can all merge with more than just those. Clarinet can merge with flute, if done right, it is very elegant and beautiful. Take the piece Morpheus by Robert W. Smith. He used a flute and a clarinet to make an amazing sound. I thought it was flute on flute till looked at the score. And like I said, Bassoon is a little more common because it isn't a derivative of the clarinet, therefore it may be more likely that the composer uses bassoon instead to get the same notes wit h diverse tones. Right?

I think you've missed the point. I think what he was trying to say was that someone who plays those instruments usually can also play the other instrument listed, i.e., a flutist knows how to play piccolo, a clarinetist is likely to know the sax, a Wagner tuba player will know how to play the horn, etc.

Many thanks for the good tips, guys.

Alright, so here's my big question: If I wanted to chuck my second horn and substitute a bass clarinet for it, could the bass clarinet harmonize smoothly [enough] with the horn on top, or would it overpower the horn at high volumes?

Don't take this as gospel, but the clarinet is very versatile and I wouldn't worry about it overpowering because the player can always tone down the dynamics if necessary (not always the case for all instruments). You would also need to consider which part of the range you're writing for, but that's the case for any instrument.

Many thanks for the good tips, guys.

Alright, so here's my big question: If I wanted to chuck my second horn and substitute a bass clarinet for it, could the bass clarinet harmonize smoothly [enough] with the horn on top, or would it overpower the horn at high volumes?

Interesting insight, Jcramer. Since you mentioned the Bb clarinet blending less well in the lower chalmeau (something I've feared myself) is that because it sounds less sonorous down there or just because it's so quiet in that range that the horn would drown it?

Like I thought that I said above, bass clarinet harmonizes very well with baritone saxophone, even when they are given the same part. Just experiment. and actually, when a clarinet gets down into the low range the can get very forte. all you need to do is blend the parts well enough so that they stick out.

My answer would be if it sounds right...go for it!

Interesting insight, Jcramer. Since you mentioned the Bb clarinet blending less well in the lower chalmeau (something I've feared myself) is that because it sounds less sonorous down there or just because it's so quiet in that range that the horn would drown it?

I once learned as a rule of thumb, that at low dynamic levels horns match woodwinds, one to one. but at louder levels you need two woodwinds to balance one brass instrument. Sure there are exceptions, but at least this shows that the clarinet, neither in its low registers will overpower the horn.

The point was not whether one would overpower the other, but whether they would blend. The low register is more pronounced and would not result in a homogenous sound, although it could sound fine nonetheless. ;)

Originaly the question was about bassclarinets. Their low register is lower than a Bb clarinets low register, so there might be some margin. But it is really hard to say without any notes as example. Best people can do is give general advise, that might or might not apply to your specific situation...

Useful to know. I arrived at a final decision last night: I'll simulate the second horn with a trombone on bucket mute (instead of a clarinet) except in those spots where the trombone is busy with other tasks. Then I'll use the bass clarinet to carry the second horn line, trusting in the instrumentalist to compensate (as much as you all have advised me is possible) for the lack of parity in the instruments. It'll be interesting to hear if the discrepency is even conspicuous, with all the other instruments doing their thing, but I'm reasonably confident in the solution, thanks to you guys.

Just compose. Eventually you will figure it out. And it's better than waiting around form a thousand people to debate the right answer.

Nothing like seeing the score, because I don't exactly what all this is about