Any Schools That Don't Require Performance?

"best composers" ... lmao. I'm sorry, but you need to learn something about music before you go pontificating on a subject you have absolutely no knowledge about. This is like a 4th grader telling everyone that the "best" show ever is Hey Arnold. Objectively 100% fact, right? Nope! It's just their misguided, young opinion.

Well that was a bit harsh, don't you think? I know I'm just a 17 year old, but I'm a student concert pianist, I've been studying music since I was in kindergarten. I just mentioned the "best composers" topic because it was mentioned to me, so I stated what the worldwide widespread agreement was, not mine. I agree, it's a stupid topic. Everything else you said was spot-on.

The top 3 composers in the world are Lil Wayne, Taylor Swift and Eric Whitacre.

/thread

Under what criteria?

In terms of popularity with the audiences, Tchaikovsky should be on the mix, possibly way above Bach and Mozart and in a dead heat with Beethoven. In terms of philosophical depth, Brahms and Mahler should be on the mix alongside with Beethoven (hey, even John Cage is termed as more of a philosopher than a composer!). If it's the creation or perfectioning of "new" musical forms, we've got from Haydn to Schumann to Mussorgsky to Xenakis. In terms of influence over later composers, Berlioz, Wagner, Stravinsky and Schoenberg can lay a legitimate claim alongside with Bach. If the criteria is virtuosistic writing, Liszt, Paganini and Prokofiev are on the table. If it's all about colorful orchestration, Ravel and Bartok own all of the above. And so on...

Now, do the survey 50 years from now, and perhaps we'll see names like Lutoslawski and Messiaen suddenly popping out into the discussion.

I know it sounded ignorant. I was just arguing against the "best composers are trombonists" statement. All I did was google "best composers".

Then it was a successful troll, because I totally fell for it.

fail to see how the objective fact that winds are better in closed harmony makes me a pretentious dumbass, as I learned that from rimsky. guess thats the internet for ya though, its 2012, I wasnt aware people could still get so offended by such trivial things as to start name calling like that. Im sorry, but you are unable to hold an academic debate. meanwhile in communist china.....

maybe there is some miscommunication here.... I'm not of the opinion that one needs a degree, not at all. Im saying it can help with the networking side of things. A lot of people get degrees that dont need it, but they can be of great benefit. out of all aspects of composing, orchestration is probably the hardest to go it alone, though that seems to be getting better with tech and the times.

I don't think true piano reductions are necessary at all actually. Maybe short score things occasionally, but full on writing for piano first then orchestrating is just an extra unnecessary step.

And, in my mind, if you can't figure out the whole score without that, you need to work on your orchestration and counterpoint/harmony skills.

thanks! I could understand working with a reduced score (say a grand staff for strings, a grand staff for brass, one for winds, and perhaps a few things on percussion) to speed things up when the ideas are flowing and you'd rather not deal with having to write all the details in, lest you lose your train of thought. plus after 29 or so your working memory starts to decline, and most people are just then becoming good at the art of orky. but there are several pros out there who dont even do that (tom goss and jay greenberg come to mind, not sure if ennio morricone does).

Jay Greenberg is a terrible example.

Well that was a bit harsh, don't you think? I know I'm just a 17 year old, but I'm a student concert pianist, I've been studying music since I was in kindergarten. I just mentioned the "best composers" topic because it was mentioned to me, so I stated what the worldwide widespread agreement was, not mine. I agree, it's a stupid topic. Everything else you said was spot-on.

Wonderful! Thank you... Unfortunately, it's not the worldwide widespread agreement! They are quite popular, but the three most popular ones are not "objectively" the best as in music, there is no such thing as objectivity. Everything is an opinion. Still, I really like the fact that you are willing to learn.

fail to see how the objective fact that winds are better in closed harmony makes me a pretentious dumbass, as I learned that from rimsky. guess thats the internet for ya though, its 2012, I wasnt aware people could still get so offended by such trivial things as to start name calling like that. Im sorry, but you are unable to hold an academic debate. meanwhile in communist china.....

Who says it's an objective fact? Winds are not necessarily better in closed harmony all the time. In fact, there are quite a few beautiful passages in the works of more modern composers that involve placing the winds and strings together in open harmonies. The internet is not the be-all end-all resource, it is true, so whatever you learn/read on the internet must be taken with a grain of salt, whether it be nuclear chemistry or orchestration. And please realize, you didn't offend me haha! I'm just trying to get you to stop making silly statements that show your ignorance. It is not an academic debate as to whether you should apply to schools that require performance auditions or not... I think you completely misunderstand the point of college. It is to learn things, and learning is one of the most valuable things you can do. If you're too lazy to learn how to play the piano, or to learn other languages (which actually really helps with understanding music!) then how can you expect to get ANYTHING out of a music education at college? After all, every class in every discipline regardless of your interest gives busy work as homework. Most of my composition homework, for example, is busy work... That's how the world works! But it helps you, trust me, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Laziness is something that you must shed if you want to be successful. The process of earning a degree is not about the paper at the end... that is meaningless! Rather, it is about the collective wealth of knowledge you get from a higher institution and studying with your peers. Part of that involves doing things that you don't like or don't want to do... But that is how we grow as people and especially as composers.

As for orchestration... What Justin said (

I don't think true piano reductions are necessary at all actually. Maybe short score things occasionally, but full on writing for piano first then orchestrating is just an extra unnecessary step.

pretty much explains his orchestral music... :P

But if you look at scores of Mahler, or Vaughan Williams, or Hindemith. Masters of orchestration. The writing is far too diversified and complex to simply write for all instruments simultaneously. What that does is stymie your creativity. Especially in this day and age, you're more prone to writing simple rhythms and harmonies and copying and pasting that to other instruments, rather than writing to preserve layers of sound and ranges of voices. The way that every "good" (whatever that means) writer has done it is through piano reductions, and guess what, it's worked. So don't think you're some prodigy that doesn't require it. If I haven't heard of you by now - you're probably not a child prodigy.

never said this was an academic debate, I meant that your decorum wouldnt quite work in one. cant go around calling people dumbasses and expect to be taken seriously in the professional world.

no matter how much orch you think you know, rimsky knows more. as well as belkin.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/47498-Lesson-13-HARMONY-Wood-wind-Harmony

the idea pops up in several other sections.

Opinions expressed in orchestration books or by ANYONE do not necessarily represent those of anyone else and cannot be considered an objective "fact".

Wonderful! Thank you... Unfortunately, it's not the worldwide widespread agreement! They are quite popular, but the three most popular ones are not "objectively" the best as in music, there is no such thing as objectivity. Everything is an opinion. Still, I really like the fact that you are willing to learn.

Again, spot-on! But I was looking for the mainstream opinion, as I said before all I did was google "best composers", can't get more mainstream than that. And yes, learning is the most important thing there is for me, especially as a composer and musician. I can be pretty arrogant because of my high self-esteem, but I sure know when to shut up and listen. Silence is underrated. It works when you agree, it works when you don't, and you always get some intel.

never said this was an academic debate, I meant that your decorum wouldnt quite work in one. cant go around calling people dumbasses and expect to be taken seriously in the professional world.

no matter how much orch you think you know, rimsky knows more. as well as belkin.

http://www.northerns...od-wind-Harmony

the idea pops up in several other sections.

That's great that Rimsky-Korsakov says that. However, countless composers don't follow this "rule". Therefore, it's not a fact, and it's not a convention. So what is it? The opinion of one man. I read that orchestration primer way back when it came about 5 years ago. It is good to know, but I would much rather learn orchestration from what I hear to sound good from the music that I like.

Also, yes, I can go around calling people dumbasses in the "professional world". Is that what you call this? How much actual exposure to the "professional world" do you have lol? In the "professional world" nobody says stupid things like you do. Everything that is put forth in a "debate" as you call this, is all factual and can be objectively corroborated. Also, I have listened to your music and I simply am stunned that you have the gall to go around acting like you're the second coming of Schubert or something.

Also, yes, I can go around calling people dumbasses in the "professional world". Is that what you call this? How much actual exposure to the "professional world" do you have lol? In the "professional world" nobody says stupid things like you do. Everything that is put forth in a "debate" as you call this, is all factual and can be objectively corroborated. Also, I have listened to your music and I simply am stunned that you have the gall to go around acting like you're the second coming of Schubert or something.

But you said....

Wonderful! Thank you... Unfortunately, it's not the worldwide widespread agreement! They are quite popular, but the three most popular ones are not "objectively" the best as in music, there is no such thing as objectivity. Everything is an opinion. Still, I really like the fact that you are willing to learn.

Soo what do you really mean?

Haha good catch ;) I mean that debates about music are usually pointless! They all come down to subjective points at some point and there's no use in trying to argue about what is "better" or "sound nicer". A real academic debate would talk about things that only can be measured objectively.

when did I ever say I thought I was good enough to be the second coming of schubert? and that's all old stuff from my sig anyways. I just got back from a professional performance of one of my works by a group of people from NYC, I have a few people practicing my works for japanese instruments, one in NYC, one in Ireland, and theres a guy in the netherlands who might be able to connect me with hichiriki players, some of which are in japan. I've plenty to learn, only been at it for two and a half years. the default position for winds is closed, do a survey of the literature and you'll see that open harmony is for special effect, not the norm. the most recent recordings I've made from samples are kinda old as well,

http://www.youngcomposers.com/?app=downloads&module=downloads&controller=view&id=134

http://www.youngcomposers.com/?app=downloads&module=downloads&controller=view&id=736

Most schools have a music program. Most of these schools don't require a whole lot to get in, and though won't wow someone with their prestige, will learn ya a thing or two.

My school required nothing of me but a willingness to learn.

EDIT: But to be 100% fair, it's not hard to be able to get by with chords and whatnot on piano or guitar or whatever your poison is, and being able to follow what's going on on a given instrument is pretty key.

yes, there are colleges where your admission is based solely on the pieces you send to them in your application. That counts as your "audition", however, I highly suggest you get into performance as that will help a lot with knowing what musicians go through (although I'm sure it's possible) the point is, do you write good music? if so, then great, then I guess you know what you're doing and don't need to perform. and your statement about the piano intrigues me. Why don't you like it? Is it that it's over used? or do you not like the timbre? If it's based on its uses, I'd have to say, it's the greatest instrument ever made because of what you can do with it.

Yea I hate the timbre, specifically what bothers me most is the sound of the hammers

O_o

:horrified:

hey don't blame me, blame all the crap pianos they insist on making. I'm sure sitting in a concert hall with a boesendorfer is a different story, but piano recordings that's all I can hear no matter how much I try and ignore it. which sucks, there is some of the greatest music out there on piano solo :( it's the same way with guitar, the only instrument I ever played. I cannot stand the sound of guitar, allan holdsworth and shawn lane are pretty much it since they do the holdsworthian legato.

You have really unusual sound preferences, what do you like then?

pretty much everything but that, nothing else comes to mind besides radio music. it's not so much a problem to hear the sound say mallets striking the marimba bars, for some reason on piano it detracts from the performance too much. Spend some time doing timbral listening, go listen to nothing but gagaku for several months on end. you will hear things you didn't before, whether you want to or not. some instruments I like all their little nuance noises, not piano or guitar. I'm not sure why, I wish it wasn't this way. as I said, there's some great music out there that, unless I see live, can't stand it. in the midrange of a piano it's not so bad, it's mostly just the extreme registers.