Form In Composition

Form-wise, do you set out to compose your pieces in a specific, predetermined form, and to "manipulate" or channel your inspiration to conform to the demands of that form; or do you allow the piece itself and the directions your inspiration guides you towards to freely dictate the original form your composition will take?

I don't have much practical knowledge about the various forms and I am wondering whether I should try to learn them and try to incorporate them into my compositions, whether I should consciously try to compose according to specific forms.

Form is an essential element of composition..... You shgould have determined what you want to accomplish from the outset of the composition.

I agree it's essential; however, I feel that form is an organic element that evolves and solidifies during the compositional process.

I think it can work both ways. Sometimes if you're just improvising, you come up with some ideas and they don't necessarily have a form at the time. But some melodies or motifs will imply a certain kind of structure that is necessary to see them through. Other times, you might start with the structure in mind first and try to come up with ideas that will fit into the form. Once you've gotten to the point of writing it down, however, you should definitely have the form thought through, or work towards it if you are someone who writes and rewrites. Unless you want it to be a subconscious effusion or whatever....

I wrote a piano piece recently without thinking about form at all... it ended up being a Rondo

it's like writing an outline for an essay, it isn't always necessary, but every time it's used, it makes the essay much much better. So, yes, I highly recommend you outline the form of your piece, and be as specific as possible

it's like writing an outline for an essay, it isn't always necessary, but every time it's used, it makes the essay much much better. So, yes, I highly recommend you outline the form of your piece, and be as specific as possible

I disagree.

Some of the most creative and interesting music has no predetermined structure or form; some pieces don't even have a form until the work is performed, and even then the form might change completely from one performance to the next.

Why do you feel it is "much much better" to have a rigid structure as opposed to a fluid form or one that is decided as the piece is composed?

I disagree.

Some of the most creative and interesting music has no predetermined structure or form; some pieces don't even have a form until the work is performed, and even then the form might change completely from one performance to the next.

Why do you feel it is "much much better" to have a rigid structure as opposed to a fluid form or one that is decided as the piece is composed?

well, I'm speaking almost entirely from experience here. first off, could you elaborate on what you mean by "some pieces don't even have a form until the work is performed"? I don't quite understand what you mean.

Certainly, some works are of great quality and without form, but that goes into style and personal opinion. My favorite era in music history was the early Romantic period, the time of Beethoven and Schubert, and up to Berlioz.Now, there is such thing as going too much into form (the entire Classical era for example). It's not that I don't like their music (not that AT ALL), but frankly, I don't see much point in a development and I find Sonata-Allegro too constraining, but I do like what Beethoven does to it, and how he breaks some of those rules. I don't think that answered your question at all....but there

Also, I didn't say "rigid" form, fluid form is necessary in music, you don't want it to sound too sudden, but from experience (and advice from other great composers) I've found that mapping out the form helps with the composition a lot more, but if it doesn't for you, then it doesn't, and it's probably a waste of your time, but I suggest you at least try it.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion (although I think it's more confusing)

Depends on what we mean by the word form. I would recommend Schoenberg Text here as a good starting point and refrence, for music is orgainze into a myraid of forms for us to use. There is also the free form composition.

well, I'm speaking almost entirely from experience here. first off, could you elaborate on what you mean by "some pieces don't even have a form until the work is performed"? I don't quite understand what you mean.

See things like:

Stockhausen's Klavierstücke XI: http://en.wikipedia....alent_structure, http://jameswiman.bl...erstuck-xi.html

Or

Haubenstock-Ramati's Liasons: http://www.viennavan...Haubenstock.jpg

Or

John Zorn's Cobra: http://en.wikipedia....obra_%28Zorn%29

It just goes to show that a predetermined form of any kind doesn't necessarily make a piece of music "much, much better".

Certainly, some works are of great quality and without form, but that goes into style and personal opinion. My favorite era in music history was the early Romantic period...

Also, I didn't say "rigid" form, fluid form is necessary in music, you don't want it to sound too sudden, but from experience (and advice from other great composers) I've found that mapping out the form helps with the composition a lot more, but if it doesn't for you, then it doesn't, and it's probably a waste of your time, but I suggest you at least try it.

I understand your perspective; it's just slightly limited and can't really be used for generalizations. ;) It doesn't take into account much of modern / avant-garde / improvised musics which do have a structure, it just may not be predetermined.