Structure Of Music

A few years ago I didn't like suites, sonatas... because they seemed boring at the time. As the time went by, I started to realize the inner structure of those forms, and appreciate them more. Most recently, I have became sort of a structure freak, observing relations between sections, movements..., and it does indeed fascinate me. I've also been composing for some time now, but didn't write that much material. Most recently I have firmly set a goal for me, a keyboard suite in c minor. So far, I've written 3 movements, Prelude (presto), Adagio and Scherzo (Allegro assai). The movements yet to be written: Trio, Chorale, Finale. I structured it like this:

Prelude (very fast repeating figure going through different harmonies) 2/4

Adagio (as a contrast to the prelude - polyphony in 3 parts) 2/2

Scherzo - Trio - Scherzo d. c. (fast scherzo and relatively slow trio) 3/4

Chorale (slow, hymn - like homophonic four part harmony movement) 4/4

Finale

I have a few questions. Please if you're going to answer 'just do whatever you feel is the best', don't even bother writing it.

1. Should at least one movement be completely in a major key (e. g. Trio or Chorale)

2. Is it better for the Finale to be in 6/8 meter and act like a jig so the suite closes like a baroque dance suite, or should I use a rondo form like closing a sonata.

3. I was thinking for some time about adding an 'extra' movement in the middle ('the center movement') between adagio and scherzo. Perhaps a Toccata of some sort, or a rondo movement, but then a jig at the end... Or is it good just the way it is now. I know it is a lot of text here, but... I wanted to be informative. I would have put the first 3 movements up here for you to listen, but I don't have a microphone, and MIDI synthethization is just lame.

Please if you're going to answer 'just do whatever you feel is the best', don't even bother writing it.

Point taken.

The organization of the different movements would depend on the general style frame. Single tonality implies renaissance or baroque dance suites, but your movements do not seem conform to the standard dances, unless you are aiming for a character piece suite, à la Couperin. In a baroque setting, a Scherzo is anachronistic. A rondo is fine as a finale (but not a rondo-sonata, which would be anachronistic, since keyboard suites went out of fashion in the classical era). Couperin used rondo form very liberally, often with many rondeaux per suite.

If you are following a more standard baroque layout, the "extra movements" - called "galanteries" - go between the sarabande and the gigue (as many as you want; those can be minuets, bourrées, polonaises, and so forth, sometimes paired, like minuet I and II, with a reprise of I...) In any case, the goal is to maximize contrast between movements, with contrasting rhythms and tempi. In this case, the rondo is reserved to the galanterie section, all the other dances are AB form.

The maggiore/minore is common. You can do it for an entire movemement or for one of the paired dances (for instance, gavotte I in minor key and gavotte II in major key).

I would put a toccata or moto perpetuo movement as a prelude, and not as an inner movement.

So far, your movements can compare to a baroque suite:

1. Moto perpetuo prelude

2. Adagio in 2/2 - could be related to an allemande

3. Scherzo in 3/4 - anachronistic if you go baroque, but at least the outer fast sections could compare to the standard courante.

4. Chorale in 4/4 - that would take the role of the sarabande (except for the time signature).

5. Finale: A gigue is the standard finale for baroque dance suite, but look up Rameau or Couperin for suites that mix standard dance movements with fancy character pieces).

Extra movements with trio or rondo form would go between 4 and 5.

Misleading title is misleading.

So... each movement should modulate up a minor third to the parallel mode of the previous movement. So if you start in C Major the second movement should be in eb minor, and then Gb Major, then a minor (Bbb minor) etc. Also, every other movement should in fact be a retrograde of each other (transposed to fit the key, obviously) Thus the Gb movement should be the C major movement transposed up a diminished fifth and in retrograde, and the a minor movement should be the eb movement an augmented fourth up in retrograde. Finally, the finale should be dodecaphonic or entirely quartal. However, the rhythms and general registral layout of the finale should be based upon the first movement inverted upon a central note (if in C Major middle C would be a possibility).

As for time, the first, second, and finale movement should be in 25/32, and the second and fourth movement should be in 18/64.

Or, if this doesn't work for you and you know something else you want to do (and feel that would be best) you can go ahead and do that instead.

There's a Scherzo in Bach's third keyboard partita.

I see Wikipedia fulfilled its role... Still, it does look like Scherzi are not very common in a baroque suite, and in any case, the dances that do not belong to the core dances (allemande, courante, sarabande and gigue) go between the sarabande and the gigue (yes, I expect Wikipedia will come up with some exceptions). Of course, we do not know if quaoquarx wants to do a regular baroque suite. I inferred that from the facts that all of his movements are in C minor (with possible maggiore movements), and that he is contemplating a jig for the finale. Since he uses some non-dance movements, he might be going for some sort of baroque sonata, but at any rate, non-dance and character pieces are possible in baroque suites.

You should rather use Courante than Scherzo, it's also in triple metre (3/2) and its relatively fast.

Actually, I wasn't aiming for the baroquesuite, not even a dance suite. It's just a keyboard suite. I was wondering whether I should insert a movement in a major mode, or leave them all in c minor (there are of course major mode parts in scherzo and adagio). And how to finish the suite.

It would get a little monotonous if you kept them all in the same key. I suggest ending it in the parallel major. Happy endings are always good. :)

Actually, I wasn't aiming for the baroquesuite, not even a dance suite. It's just a keyboard suite. I was wondering whether I should insert a movement in a major mode, or leave them all in c minor (there are of course major mode parts in scherzo and adagio). And how to finish the suite.

You can do C major movements if you want. For the ending, a rondo is a good choice. You can do it a "gigue en rondeau", if you do not mind mixing dance, non-dance and character pieces. Or just something lively and flashy. Everything in the same key (with mode switches) was the norm of the baroque era; and you would not call Bach, Rameau and Couperin suites monotonous at all! However, if the style is classical, romantic or contemporary (not a lot of keyboard suites in the classical era as far as I know, but I'm sure wikipedia knows better), different keys are to be expected, though, but not perhaps for the ending, which should be in the home key, unless it is a case of doing whatever you feel it is allright, which you said you do not want to do - just as one would do with a sonata.

To come up with a meaningful answer we'd need to know more about the aesthetic of the piece & the length of the movements.

There's a Scherzo in Bach's third keyboard partita.

It's in 2/4 time and is basically a double time gavotte though.

From Rameau:

Suite in A min:

Prelude (A min), Allemande 1 (A min), Allemande 2 (A min), Gigue (A min), Sarabande 1 (A min), Sarabande 2 (A maj), Venitienne (A maj), Gavotte (A min), Menuet (A min).

Suite in E min:

Allemande, courante, gigue en rondeau (E min), gigue in roundeau 2 (E maj); a bunch of character pieces and dance movements follow (in E min or E maj); finale is a character piece in rondo form (E min).

Suite in D min:

All of the movements are character pieces, mixing D min and D maj. Finale is a very short movement in 6/8, a bit gigue-like, in D min.

Suite in A min:

Allemande, courante (both in A min), Sarabande (A maj), bunch of character pieces in either A min or A maj. Finale is a gavotte with 6 doubles (variations) in A min.

Suite in G maj:

Character pieces, except for a menuet 1 and 2. Almost every movement is in G min. Finale is a character piece in binary form, in G min.

Couperin is also very fancy with his "ordres". I expect Bach or Handel are more orthodox with their suites and partitas for the keyboard, and conform more to the stereotyped prelude - allemande - courante - sarabande - galanteries - gigue.

Perhaps this is a case of "do whatever you feel it is all right", after all...

I agree: Scherzo does not belong to the baoque dance suite but the sonata cycle.