Discouraging budding composers

It has come to my attention privately (and I will name no names) that many budding composers on this website are becoming intensely discouraged because of some of the irresponsible, arrogant, harsh things that have been said about some beginner---intermediate composers' works.

To me this is horrifying. To discourage a beginner is tantamount to murdering someone's soul. It disgusts and enrages me. All those responsible for discouraging talented young composers here really should be drug out in the street and shot.

I think everyone should try a different tack when trying to help beginning composers---instead of say "this and that doesn't fit" or "that hurts my ears" and other such incredibly unhelpful, unkind bullshit, you should say something like: "Hey....I liked this passage, but why don't you ADD such and such." This way, you are not trying to tell someone to change their style or even how they wrote their music but simply to expand.

Music is about mores and lesses.....not about rights and wrongs.

So for heaven's sake stop killing the creative spirit of some of these young composers.

To all those seeking an encouraging and helpful voice about composition---please feel free to im me. I wish I could read all the posts in this website and find out just how many of you have been discouraged and take you all in to my "school" as it were, and save you from all the arrogant nonsense on this website. I'm not superman however...but if you need someone to encourage you and help you please seek me out.

I know from first hand experience how unpleasant it is to read harsh, unkind things about something I have created and how much that discourages one and makes one feel uninspired. It is the worst thing in the world, I have been dragged through a HELL of discouragement (though in a different artistic pursuit than music, thank god!).....but in music I was lucky to find a really encouraging and helpful person who believed in me and what I have to say musically.

I'm just putting myself out here if anyone needs such a person...cause I just can't stand to see what happened to me happen to other young people...it breaks my heart.

It's a good point to make.

I used to be very sensitive, so I like to take the approach of being encouraging (just being positive, not sugarcoating, there's a difference I think) when I talk about people's music until I get to know them on the board a little better. Usually after a while, you can tell whether or not they want direct, clear cut constructive criticism or just some encouraging words and simple suggestions. I'd rather encourage return visits because they might have something under their belt in the future that will blow me away.

There's nothing wrong with a straightforward opinion. I wish I could make everyone not be sensitive. However, people are easily scared away for one reason or another so I'd prefer to avoid that. :D

Now that I've been here for a while, I don't care what people say about my music (the little that I post). In the beginning, I was a little more fearsome. I have no explanation for that.

I've never understood, however, how criticism can ever be helpful. LIke.....whenever someone tells ME that something is out of place, I'm usually just like, gently caress you *I* like having that in there

but to criticize people who are obviously trying to find their own compositional voice is just......its just wrong.

Criticize, yes. Critique, I don't think so. There are certain things in music which just don't work as well as other things. Certainly viable options, all, but things that beginning composers may not be aware of. I find that a critique (a review of points which are good and which points need work) is helpful to create awareness of compositional problems. Criticism, however (stating what is bad), is certainly something that can be spared, at least until said beginning composer does develop a consistent voice to compare to.

What, for example, really doesn't work as well as other things? I find this interesting coming from someone who is quite obviously a very liberal minded composer---not exactly a conservative harmonically or otherwise!

I don't want to leave the original point though. There are discouraged people on this board, and it is terrible, and it MUST STOP!!!!! I think we should go after the harsh reviewers, rather than rebuke the beginners to grow up. You can really ruin someone's creative spirit for a LONG time.....it happened to me

What doesn't work well as other things?

Well.....

There's always "Bach's rule", in which the third time you play something it should be slightly different. I usually abide by that one pretty solidly.

How about constant high C's in a trumpet part?

How about rapid figures in the low C to low E area of a double bass part?

Notation issues are a REALLY big point for me. I'm always willing to alter notation if I can make it more clear.

Criticize, yes. Critique, I don't think so. There are certain things in music which just don't work as well as other things. Certainly viable options, all, but things that beginning composers may not be aware of. I find that a critique (a review of points which are good and which points need work) is helpful to create awareness of compositional problems. Criticism, however (stating what is bad), is certainly something that can be spared, at least until said beginning composer does develop a consistent voice to compare to.

What doesn't work well as other things?

Well.....

There's always "Bach's rule", in which the third time you play something it should be slightly different. I usually abide by that one pretty solidly.

How about constant high C's in a trumpet part?

How about rapid figures in the low C to low E area of a double bass part?

Notation issues are a REALLY big point for me. I'm always willing to alter notation if I can make it more clear.

I definitely agree with you both but I just want to add this to the discussion.

It is true that young composers can be easily crushed by harsh and insulting reeves at the excuse of being straight forward.

Such tactics don't serve any purpose on a forum like YC. This forum is a place for encouragment, growth, sharing and learning no matter what anything sounds like. However, there are some

things that just don't muscially work as well as others. Such knowledge and understanding comes with learning AND experience, as well as guidance! When I was a college student there were times when I was very attached to a musical thought in a piece, but my teacher understanding my intent would still have to bring me back down to earth and make me realize that there are better ways to say or express yourself without compromise. And whether you want to face it or not there are some rights and wrongs. Yes, music is intellectual and its an art but it is also a language, a way of communication. And, just as in spoken language some things just don't work well for getting an idea, point or thought across. Being a composer is a very complex and sensitive thing. We become emotionally and intellectually attached to what we write but, you do have to come down to earth and be honest with yourself and say, "I may like this and its a great theme, etc. but is it really out of place?" Now that I am a teacher, when a student either has trouble accepting my advice I ask them, "do you feel strongly about what you have written?" if they seem unsure I just tell them to look at their music objectively and for them to really think about what they are trying to express. If a student does decided that they feel strongly about something they've written, eventhough I have voiced my concerns, I let them know that in the end its up to them and they should be happy with their musical choices. However, I don't let them off the hook without reminding them of the backlash or criticisms they might receive and that they should be prepared for it. As a composer you have to live and die with your musical choices and ideals. You also live with the praise and hurtful comments associated with your works or talent.

But again, we should be careful how we voice our comments as to not hurt and discourage other members, whether they are inexperienced or experienced. To anyone who is here trying to flash his/her ego and hurt people, you need to leave! If you are that good that you can go around hurting people you should be out before the masses schooling us all in composition and unlocking all the marvels of the musical universe!

What, for example, really doesn't work as well as other things? I find this interesting coming from someone who is quite obviously a very liberal minded composer---not exactly a conservative harmonically or otherwise!

What I'm talking about doesn't have to do with harmony, melody, or tonality. It usually has to do with consistency - keeping a similar harmonic language across the course of a piece - or schizophrenia - bringing in a musical idea just because it's a cool idea, without any backup or precedent.

I've never understood, however, how criticism can ever be helpful. LIke.....whenever someone tells ME that something is out of place, I'm usually just like, gently caress you *I* like having that in there

;) :D I admit having felt like that before. That was pretty funny.

Well said, Majesty, I agree 100% with everything you said.

I definitely agree with you both but I just want to add this to the discussion.

It is true that young composers can be easily crushed by harsh and insulting reeves at the excuse of being straight forward.

Such tactics don't serve any purpose on a forum like YC. This forum is a place for encouragment, growth, sharing and learning no matter what anything sounds like. However, there are some

things that just don't muscially work as well as others. Such knowledge and understanding comes with learning AND experience, as well as guidance! When I was a college student there were times when I was very attached to a musical thought in a piece, but my teacher understanding my intent would still have to bring me back down to earth and make me realize that there are better ways to say or express yourself without compromise. And whether you want to face it or not there are some rights and wrongs. Yes, music is intellectual and its an art but it is also a language, a way of communication. And, just as in spoken language some things just don't work well for getting an idea, point or thought across. Being a composer is a very complex and sensitive thing. We become emotionally and intellectually attached to what we write but, you do have to come down to earth and be honest with yourself and say, "I may like this and its a great theme, etc. but is it really out of place?" Now that I am a teacher, when a student either has trouble accepting my advice I ask them, "do you feel strongly about what you have written?" if they seem unsure I just tell them to look at their music objectively and for them to really think about what they are trying to express. If a student does decided that they feel strongly about something they've written, eventhough I have voiced my concerns, I let them know that in the end its up to them and they should be happy with their musical choices. However, I don't let them off the hook without reminding them of the backlash or criticisms they might receive and that they should be prepared for it. As a composer you have to live and die with your musical choices and ideals. You also live with the praise and hurtful comments associated with your works or talent.

But again, we should be careful how we voice our comments as to not hurt and discourage other members, whether they are inexperienced or experienced. To anyone who is here trying to flash his/her ego and hurt people, you need to leave! If you are that good that you can go around hurting people you should be out before the masses schooling us all in composition and unlocking all the marvels of the musical universe!

What I'm talking about doesn't have to do with harmony, melody, or tonality. It usually has to do with consistency - keeping a similar harmonic language across the course of a piece - or schizophrenia - bringing in a musical idea just because it's a cool idea, without any backup or precedent.

I really do come from a different world from you on this issue. Everything (both) of you say seems to want to make composition into something where objective evaluation is possible (this fact amuses me greatly since I find such things as John Cage to be ridiculous OVERLY subjective nonsense and you guys seem to think he was "great" or something). Of course music does have a certain level of objectivity to it, but it only becomes apparent once you analyze what the composer's goals are. If somebody has precisely the same goals as Mozart or Bach or Schoenberg, then there will be a towering list of rules which objective criticism can help a budding composer emulate properly.

If on the other hand somebody is writing their own music for their own purposes with their own goals---none of these rules exist. Classic form ceases to be important, classic goals and rules cease to be important. The only thing that remains important at that point is the sound of the music itself. If it moves you, you have succeeded in writing good music. If it does not---your music may lack variety in some form or another. I am becoming gradually more convinced that variety in all dimensions (unless one consciously restricts a certain dimension to achieve a certain effect) is what gives music life.

It is in this latter case, of composers who clearly make their own rules, where I feel your position about there being rights and wrongs really doesn't make sense.

Perhaps we should ask a composer each time they post a work: "Is your goal to imitate any particular composer from the past?" If they say YES, then there is a wealth of music theory knowledge and historical precedent which definitely would enumerate hundreds of "rights" and "wrongs" that composer could commit, and we could then analyze how well their work compares to that and let them know where they messed up.

If they say NO, then let us just listen to what they have created and see if we find it interesting and moving and let them know where in their composition such moments occurred and what they might do to expand its variety or contrast or whatever other subjective musical dimension you wish.

I'd like to end by keeping this topic to the same point---we must stop discouraging young composers---it is heartbreaking.

I'd add that to say nothing is far worse, and that's also something that we as a community are very guilty of. It basically says we're not listening...

I agree mostly

But when you post something, people shouldn't expect love and praise.

Give me a bad review over a good review any day.

Usually.

Warning lol, this is a long story, but it is relevant hah

hah this happened to me, I remember when I first tried classical composition, before I did some jazz, big band, and once fooled around with a techno thing for fun, but when I started classical composition I just fooled around cause I didn't know the theory and I made this really badass intro (unfortunately I deleted the file by accident in finale lol ;) ) Anyways it started all soft and built up really intensley and had a huge release, it was really neat and I made it all of intuition, instead of theory, and well it was only an intro so it was like 40 something seconds long, but I thought it was so cool I showed one of my friends who likes jazz and he was impressed. Anyways that was a good experience.... but later after that I was messing around in finale and I would show my roomate (a different person than the previously mentioned friend) my pieces, and well he'd always be kinda weird about it, he'd be like, I don't like this and make a werid face like I was strange.... it made me feel really uncomfortable, so I asked him to elaborate and well he actually had a hard time pointing it out what made him not like it... so well I just blew it off, and later I wrote something else... I liked it even more, and well he did the same thing lol, and by this time I was getting all paranoid thinking I had some like twisted taste in music or something and had no talent, but then I remembered what my friend said about the peice he liked, so I showed my friend the intro, and well he did the same thing lol, he made a weird face and told me he didn't like it... so anyways this time I asked him what was bad about it, and he really skirted around alot and had a hard time explaining what he didn't like, at one point he told me a motif I had sounded bad cause like 3 notes where similar to this one classical peice (lol and they weren't even in the same rhythmn).... so well I asked him if that was it.... he told me no, but he didn't really understand why, he just didn't like it, he told me he liked all this other classical music instead, like obviously the well known people.... so well I asked him what he would do to fix it, he told me he'd try to imitate another peice of music..... err I knew at the time this was bad advice but I had really felt bad after all the negative critism, so anyways that was the end of that story, but the point of it all is that..... that experience of that one guy just giving me weird looks and dissing my music made me feel akward and really uncomfortable, before I used to be able to just play around with sounds and feel comfortable experiementing, but now I kind of doubt myself alot, and when I write something I can't help but think, is this good, or will I just get a weird look when I share it, its made me kind of paranoid, and well I hate feeling like that, because before I used to just share stuff upfront and I loved experiementing with all types and genres, now I am super sensitive because I had never felt so akward in my entire life the way he critiqued me. It completely destroyed the joy I get from being able to make something that I can feel and share that with another person, it makes me feels as if what I have to share is a bad thing, that I am harming people by sharing my musical ideas lol. Of course I still compose and such, because I have gotten alot of positive comments too, but after I immedieatly get a negative comment it really disrupts me and makes me paranoid about my ideas and abilities.

Hmm Well I am going to add this in an edit -- I really disagree with Chris Shaver respectfully, They are not trying to make some ideological utopian, its simple mutual respect, no one is attempting to force anyone to no say bad things or to say bad things, whatever you have ur free will to do whatever.... but the point is, if you are like me and don't like akward feelings and situations like the ones described above, then the easiest way to accomplish this is by you yourself embodying that change, Ghandi said "You have to be the change you want to see", and this is true. So well with that said, it seems absolutely brainless and uninsightful to treat people in a poor way, because this usually comes back at you, so its really like screwing yourself over...... my guess is though that all this anger or whatever with the whole "loving DEAL WITH IT!" is coming from another source. Anger is usually because you feel restrained or fail at expectations, another form of restraint from your goals, and well it seems for whatever reason you don't like them attempting to restrain you from insulting other people. Well this puzzles me, why do u want to have the freedom to insult people, I will give you that freedom, but why do you want to insult other people's music??

"There are discouraged people on this board, and it is terrible, and it MUST STOP!!!!!"

Excuse me for thinking you're a cat, but loving DEAL WITH IT!

If you don't want to be discouraged and have bad things sad about your music, don't loving post it.

Take a step back and realize we are part of the real world, not some ideological utopian where everyone writes beautiful music and everyone cares about how everyone feels.

By asking for a review you are asking for someone's opinion on your music, not asking them to tell you how great it is.

If someone is stupid enough to take a bad review and quit composing or think they're never going to get better, I think THEY should be drug out into the street and shot.

Nobody has said anything bad about my own music...I am coming to the defense of some other people on this board---some of whom are quite young and shouldn't have to "deal with it" as you put it.

Thanks for coming to our Aid Derek

One thing to all you people who critique music from beginner's on the website

WE ARE NOT BACH, WE ARE NOT MOZART, WE ARE THE BEGINNERS! Don't expect a newb to know everything, if you do, your own a fool's errand.

Thank you

PS: one other thing, Stop thinking that we have to sound like one of the greats to be good!

I really do come from a different world from you on this issue. Everything (both) of you say seems to want to make composition into something where objective evaluation is possible (this fact amuses me greatly since I find such things as John Cage to be ridiculous OVERLY subjective nonsense and you guys seem to think he was "great" or something). Of course music does have a certain level of objectivity to it, but it only becomes apparent once you analyze what the composer's goals are. If somebody has precisely the same goals as Mozart or Bach or Schoenberg, then there will be a towering list of rules which objective criticism can help a budding composer emulate properly.

If on the other hand somebody is writing their own music for their own purposes with their own goals---none of these rules exist. Classic form ceases to be important, classic goals and rules cease to be important. The only thing that remains important at that point is the sound of the music itself. If it moves you, you have succeeded in writing good music. If it does not---your music may lack variety in some form or another. I am becoming gradually more convinced that variety in all dimensions (unless one consciously restricts a certain dimension to achieve a certain effect) is what gives music life.

It is in this latter case, of composers who clearly make their own rules, where I feel your position about there being rights and wrongs really doesn't make sense.

Perhaps we should ask a composer each time they post a work: "Is your goal to imitate any particular composer from the past?" If they say YES, then there is a wealth of music theory knowledge and historical precedent which definitely would enumerate hundreds of "rights" and "wrongs" that composer could commit, and we could then analyze how well their work compares to that and let them know where they messed up.

If they say NO, then let us just listen to what they have created and see if we find it interesting and moving and let them know where in their composition such moments occurred and what they might do to expand its variety or contrast or whatever other subjective musical dimension you wish.

I'd like to end by keeping this topic to the same point---we must stop discouraging young composers---it is heartbreaking.

I'm not here to argue but there is a "big picture" of composition. I for one never said that John Cage was great! In fact I do not find anything satisfying about the music of John Cage and that goes for many other composers as well. It doesn't matter what style a composer is writing in or what rules are used to asses a work. Any composition or style will have its own set of rules anyway. Even if you write a piece that sounds completely out of control and chaotic the piece itself would have been governed by rules of some kind, unless you just "splashed" notes all over the place. One's decision on form, melodic and harmonic interaction will in itself automatically set up rules in a composition. That's what you have to look at objectively. That's different than personal taste when it comes to the asthetics of music (although I do have my own personal feelings on the asthetics of musical composition like so many others do).

One should always aspire to composer with great voice leading. However, if in composing a piece one decided to omit certain traditional voice leading rules to accomplish the objective of what he/she is trying to express then so be it. Composition is governed by boundaries and rules. Its just depends on what "laws" of music were being used to compose. That's why when members post pieces, they are encouraged to post information about the composition process, the techniques used and so forth so that we do know how to listen to it. Its no different than listening to Bach, Schubert, Wagner, Scott Joplin, Aretha Franklin, Kiss, or Alicia Keys. You have to listen to the music of all these musicians with different ears and a different understanding. Whether or not you appreciate it is another question. There was a certain goal in mind when each of these writer composed their notes. You then decided, with the goal and intention in mind was the piece successful? Did your handling of form, harmony and melody get the picture across despite the fact that you put something down because you like. In short, does it fit and does it make sense? Of course, the composer will always feel that their work was successful and if they feel that way and their happy then what does it matter?

Well, it that's the case you have to be prepared and MATURE enough to take all that comes with others sharing in what you do. If you can't handle that then only you should listen you your music, basically.

I don't disagree with you when it comes to the sad state of members being crushed and discouraged. But, if one is truly writing for his/herself, then they should be content writing alone and playing their pieces for themselves only in seclusion. Because, it is in fact for yourself. But if you honestly feel that you want to share your music in any way, then you did not really write it for yourself. Or else, one would be suffering from delusions of self. No man is an island unto himself. What I'm saying is that unless one composes music for themselves and sits all by his/her lonesome enjoying him/herself, there will be other factors that make a difference in the world of music that I won't go into. But the truth does stand. No one here needs to feel discouraged and THAT I agree with.

Oh they shouldn't? Because they're not humans like the rest of us?

Or maybe we should sugar-coat reality for them so that when they become adults it can hit them full-force unexpectedly?

The idea that people who are "quite young" can't deal with the reality of humanity is stupid, immature, and disrespectful.

Hmm reality is not important, what is important is to understand reality and truth, music is not objective, it is subjective, any judgement passed on art is subjective always and forever, this is because you can't understand the objective fully, I work with science daily.... I really do understand the objective, but off course not fully, but enough to realize music is subjective..... so well the only truth in this reality is what you feel and think about it. Not what the world thinks about it, just you.... and well why do this cruely?

Obviously the idea here is the innocence of the starting composer, they simply want to express idea and not fulfill objectives you impose on them, they don't know any better of what you like or except unless you communicate, and well if you diss them, chances are they won't probably talk to you again.

oh definitally over sensitivity is bad, but I am guessing you are the judge of the proper amount a person should be sensitive and are planning on writing a rule book for how sensitive a person should be, if they excede this expecation then its automatically they are disillusioned?

second sensitivity is not bad, sensitivity means the person can obviously feel emotion of some sort, and well its a no brainer that if a person likes or enjoys their peice they are going to be upset when you tear it apart.... that doesn't mean you have to like their peice, it just means that well DEAL WITH IT if the person is sensitive about their peice.... hmm irony ?

Hah well let me be serious, I am saying that telling a person they suck is not a gift, the gift is the realization that the person didn't enjoy the peice, the thing that isn't a gift is when u say this a certain way it incites an emotion in the other person, which is a rather natural thing, it pretty hard to be involved in art if your going to be dry, cold, and emotionless about it.

Of course occasionally a person will be mean and well its definitally not ideal but people should expect it to happen once in a while, since it happens so frequent and learn to manage the negativity and be strong and pursue their internal motivation, instead of get blown away by other peoples opinions, but alternatively, it doesn't do anyone a favor when a person is being malicious in a review, why because most of the time the intent of the review/post process is not this, instead its in helping composers, and well its not going to help if you make the composer feel bad, unless you are yourself expected an ideal circumstance that people are completely placid, objective, and logical to reviewers comments.

Hmm makes sense, but whats your intent in express what you think about a composer's peice?? Is it to make them feel bad about their abilities?? Or is it to help them, because if you want to help them then it would seem the easiest way to accomplish this is to be considerate of how they feel while at the same time not sacrificing your feelings on the peice. However this is very tricky, so I do think it is important that both sides realize this and are willing to work with each other towards the ideal.

Also I do understand finally why you are saying this, its because you don't want everyone to expect reviewers to be nice and sugarcoat a peice and say they love it, when they dislike it, because its childish and doesn't help the composer develop, but I am simply saying I think both you and derek can be right, I think their is a way to say you dislike a peice, help the composer, and still consider the composers feeling, I think this is difficult, but realization of the goal is the first step to obtaining it....

well out of curosity, why do you post reviews??

Also I agree I would not appreciate cencorship of review whether they were harsh or acceptable, its something people will unfortunately expreience and will have to learn to accept as part of the risk of it all.

If someone told me "your piece is a load of crap" I'd be mad, but I'd ignore it.

If they said, "I don't like your piece at all because it's overly repetitive, does not develop a theme very creatively and wanders around too much. Try to tie everything together and it will be a lot better." Then I'd fix it.

If someone said, "just coming from a standpoint of not knowing how to critique this, I didn't think it was very engaging." I could also use that.

Harsh comments are completely useless and help nobody, and at worst they discourage naive youngsters. It is terribly unneccessary... you guys really don't want me to ruin your scraggy do you?

Also---some people clearly didn't understand my post. I had two large paragraphs predicated by IF a composer has the goal of emulating such and such, THEN we evaluate their work based on rules. IF the composer wants to compose his own music, then we evaluate it for its own merit based entirely on the sound. I never said ANYBODY has to imitate any style.

I find one of the most irritating things about posting on the internet is very few people ever really read each other's posts or take any time to try to understand what they were saying--and so ultimately, the only thing that gets accomplished by places like this are building up tiny little evil egos and destroying young people who love music.

If I was running the website I'd let it die. I'm glad I've made some friends here, but there are so many toweringly hideous personalities on here it really makes me sick.

you wish my penis was small. btw you of all people shouldn't be calling me negative. hahahaha...although apparently you'd admit that of yourself proudly...oh well

Yeah, actually that'd probably make the world a much better place, so long as the half of the population we eradicate are evil people who like to make life harder for others.