Discouraging budding composers

I'm 16 and literally just starting to compose...

I'm so STUPID! I'm 17 and have been for a month now! *whacks self in head with a book* How *whack* could I *whack* forget??? :laugh:

When I first started, I took all comments gratefully, and accepted that everyone here knew a hell of a lot more than me, and I'll do best if I listen to what they say. It's not difficult to sort those who are trying to help you by pointing out things that can be improved upon, and those who are just out to trash your work. I personally prefer reviews that point out bad things, as it gives me something to work on.

I haven't read all 30 pages of this post, but I merely wanted to express that I definitely think that music is subjective.

What one piece of art does for one person will not do for another person and so on and so on. You might not like how a song or musical piece sounds to you, but it might be fantastic for someone else. I myself don't like heavy metal, but millions of people do. I can't say that heavy metal is "scraggy" per say, even if it's not for me.

I don't believe there is a true definition of "scraggy music". It is like telling someone that their opinion is wrong.

I don't want to leave the original point though. There are discouraged people on this board, and it is terrible, and it MUST STOP!!!!! I think we should go after the harsh reviewers, rather than rebuke the beginners to grow up. You can really ruin someone's creative spirit for a LONG time.....it happened to me

Your creative spirit shouldn’t depend on what people may say and not may say. You just need to train yourself to accept certain comments by people 'as they are'. Technically, if a beginner composer can’t accept the following statement on his music maybe he should pick a different avenue for his expressions:

"Hey, your piece really sucks, its horrible, if I would be you, I would change the whole intro and the layout of the score".

Now this above statement, was probably given by someone who doesn’t feel that he wants to help nor he didn’t care for the feelings of the musician, but nevertheless this person had something to say about the piece of music. It wasn’t the greatest thing in the whole world, and also was probably very harsh and not pleasant, but if one wants to enter the world of the music business, one needs to train his skin to become more thick then it is now if he wants to survive and ultimately succeed.

Most musicians and I’m talking about the famous and successful ones had to go through lots of obstacles to reach the success that they enjoy now. Things were not easy in the beginning,, but they have developed a sense of acceptance , that people are just people and some people are going to say very mean spirited and offensive things about them and their music, and they should just try to be strong and take their comments as they are and either accept them or ignore them.

I remember reading about Prokofiev's first performance of his wrist etude and how the crowd started to whistle and boo him as he played. Now, at this situation Prokofiev could have done one of two things;

1. He could’ve stopped the concert and leave for home and be depressed for the next few months for this terrible incident.

2. Continue playing the etude, no matter what.

Prokofiev chose the latter because he knew human nature. He understood that in his long career as an artist he would encounter very different people with all different sorts of emotions and characteristics, and he would never depend the quality of his art on the people. He knew his powers , what he can and cant do with music and he just continued, chanting his tune regardless of what people thought.

I'll tell you a personal example with me.

I had posted in the major works section a work that I feel very connected to. Its my orchestral work Chanukah. A composition that I worked hard on and felt connected to, in fact its my favorite work that I composed. After a few days, this work was publicly removed from the major works section and instead was put on the orchestral works section , implying that my work was not good enough to be considered as a major work. I felt horrible about it, I cant describe the feeling, it was so bad, you could even say that I was somewhat hurt because of that. After this incident I had left the site for about 8 months. What caused me to return?

I was thinking to myself, that I just cant make people feel the same thing that I feel about my work. I also thought that even though I love this work, other might even hate it. It's entirely possible. I didn’t understand that before, it took that incident to make me realize that not everyone is going to love my music and that some are going to dislike it completely. This is human nature, some people like certain things and some don’t.

Some people like apples and some don’t, some people like milk and some not, some people like Cnn and some not, some people like Beethoven and some not , some people like Music and some not, some people like Art and some not, some people like orange juice and some not, and yes some people like my music and are going to say nice things about it and some people do not like my music and might say bad things about it and its up to me to accept their comments or not. I chose to accept the comments good or bad, because it would be arrogant to feel that the music that I create would only merit positive comments and not negative ones.

Best Wishes,

Saul

I'm not going through all of it either, but I tend to try and be nice and encouraging as much as possible. The way I see it if someone comes up to me just saying "this is crap" then they're disregarding all the effort I put into the music. Just "I don't like it, and here's how I think it can be improved" is enough. It's still tough, but its constructive and it doesn't just write off the work I put in as bullshit.

Stop being pussies and understand that some people will blast your music. It happened to Stravinski, it happened to Debussy. Be encouraged by harsh words, because HARSH WORDS should be taken as incentive to make your music better.

If I were to say, "I hate this composition because..."

Appreciate the fact that somebody at least listened to it.

There's always "Bach's rule", in which the third time you play something it should be slightly different. I usually abide by that one pretty solidly.

Nothing should be played the same way twice. Change it on the second time around.

Perhaps people that are offended by harsh comments should realize that they are most likely not intended to just hurt your feelings. If I should say that a particular passage "made my ears bleed," the same idea is being conveyed as if I said that I "believe that the piece would be made more enjoyable if the passage were altered slightly." Making such a huge deal about the tone usually means that you're ignoring the content. Perhaps there are people that just run around telling other people that they suck for that very reason, but I can assure you that most people that use a harsh tone are just trying to help in a way that's less saccharine than some may be accustomed to.

Wow, I posted this months ago. Anyway I'd like to add something. I think that criticism only has a place in art if someone deliberately sets out to do some sort of exercise. In composition, learning part writing rules with an SATB chorale is one such example. Fugues are another example, since they still follow part writing rules and also some rules of form. However, for any composition or work of art that someone has created with absolutely no mention of attempting to adhere to some sort of exercise or form; I really don't think that criticism is in order. One may dislike something, but how can that possibly be useful to the person who has posted their work? Opinions of what is effective in music differ greatly from individual to individual. Some people might think my music is overly romantic and sappy. I don't care. I might think their music is too classical and dry. Neither opinion would be helpful in either direction.

So here's my suggestion for people posting their work here (ESPECIALLY BEGINNERS):

if you're doing an exercise in form or part writing:

Say: I am writing this piece trying to adhere to part writing/form/etc. exercise. Can those of you experienced in this exercise or set of rules tell me whether I have successfully adhered to them?

if you post something that came from your heart, that you wrote without thinking about any rules:

Here's a piece that I was inspired to write. I didn't try to fit it in to any form or harmonic rules. Please let me know if you liked it and if you think there's something I could experiment with to expand my vocabulary as a composer. Comments about form or part writing will be useless to me as my goal in writing this piece was not necessarily to adhere to either.

Here's my suggestion for people responding to work:

Do not assume that the person posting, especially if they point out that they are inexperienced, want your criticism based on some set of rules or form that they did not indicate. Instead, if you like it, say so, and say something you'd like to hear more of (variety, etc.), and encourage them. If you don't like something, or they didn't follow some pet rule of yours that you think they should have, keep it to yourself. It will not be useful to them, and in cases of particularly sensitive individuals, they may become very discouraged or hurt.

Wow, I posted this months ago. Anyway I'd like to add something. I think that criticism only has a place in art if someone deliberately sets out to do some sort of exercise. In composition, learning part writing rules with an SATB chorale is one such example. Fugues are another example, since they still follow part writing rules and also some rules of form. However, for any composition or work of art that someone has created with absolutely no mention of attempting to adhere to some sort of exercise or form; I really don't think that criticism is in order. One may dislike something, but how can that possibly be useful to the person who has posted their work? Opinions of what is effective in music differ greatly from individual to individual. Some people might think my music is overly romantic and sappy. I don't care. I might think their music is too classical and dry. Neither opinion would be helpful in either direction.

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that opinions can't help composers? Good one.

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that opinions can't help composers? Good one.

Allow me to clarify. Opinions may or may not be useful to experienced composers. Personally, they are not useful at all to me now that I am experienced, nor when I was a beginner. (though of course I don't mind praise, in fact like any human being I like it...but it doesn't help me grow). To a budding composer, it seems to me that only positive, or encouraging opinions need to be voiced at all. They're just learning. They don't know how to use negative opinions.

I recognize that there are individuals who begin composing who SEEK criticism...this post is not for them. I recognize that some individuals may find it useful from the get go, and may not be discouraged by it.

My posting in this thread is simply a plea to be more sensitive towards beginners. Some may come here expecting (however naively) to be encouraged. If they get the opposite, a young artistic spirit might just be crushed.

Allow me to clarify. Opinions may or may not be useful to experienced composers. Personally, they are not useful at all to me now that I am experienced (though of course I don't mind praise, in fact like any human being I like it...but it doesn't help me grow). To a budding composer, it seems to me that only positive, or encouraging opinions need to be voiced at all. They're just learning. They don't know how to use negative opinions.

I recognize that there are individuals who begin composing who SEEK criticism...this post is not for them. I recognize that some individuals may find it useful from the get go, and may not be discouraged by it.

My posting in this thread is simply a plea to be more sensitive towards beginners. Some may come here expecting (however naively) to be encouraged. If they get the opposite, a young artistic spirit might just be crushed.

Don't assume that everybody that doesn't know how to resolve a dominant chord is incapable of accepting and valuing criticism. Some people actually have testicles even though they aren't the greatest composer.

And really, stop trying to blame the big bullies for discouraging beginners. People need to take responsibility for themselves, beginner or not.

Don't assume that everybody that doesn't know how to resolve a dominant chord is incapable of accepting and valuing criticism. Some people actually have testicles even though they aren't the greatest composer.

And really, stop trying to blame the big bullies for discouraging beginners. People need to take responsibility for themselves, beginner or not.

Hence why, as you can see in my post that you quoted, I said that I recognize some people find criticism useful from the get go. To reiterate, this thread is not for those individuals. It is for people like me, who are sensitive enough to have their spirit crushed by the opinions of others. Thankfully this did not happen to me in music, but it did happen to me.

Of course people should learn to realize that others' opinions shouldn't cause them dismay or discouragement. People should of course develop "balls." But what about people who come here who are 12, 14...16 years old. They're kids for heaven's sake. They don't have balls. (okay, maybe some emotionally advanced ones do, I certainly did NOT at that age) They need to be encouraged.

As for those poor bullies that you say I shouldn't blame---however few there really are who could be described as bullies--- they need to get a life.

Hence why, as you can see in my post that you quoted, I said that I recognize some people find criticism useful from the get go. To reiterate, this thread is not for those individuals. It is for people like me, who are sensitive enough to have their spirit crushed by the opinions of others. Thankfully this did not happen to me in music, but it did happen to me.

Of course people should learn to realize that others' opinions shouldn't cause them dismay or discouragement. People should of course develop "balls." But what about people who come here who are 12, 14...16 years old. They're kids for heaven's sake. They don't have balls. (okay, maybe some emotionally advanced ones do, I certainly did NOT at that age) They need to be encouraged.

As for those poor bullies that you say I shouldn't blame---however few there really are who could be described as bullies--- they need to get a life.

Yeah, people who are harsh in their criticisms don't have lives. Logical.

Hence why, as you can see in my post that you quoted, I said that I recognize some people find criticism useful from the get go. To reiterate, this thread is not for those individuals. It is for people like me, who are sensitive enough to have their spirit crushed by the opinions of others. Thankfully this did not happen to me in music, but it did happen to me.

Of course people should learn to realize that others' opinions shouldn't cause them dismay or discouragement. People should of course develop "balls." But what about people who come here who are 12, 14...16 years old. They're kids for heaven's sake. They don't have balls. (okay, maybe some emotionally advanced ones do, I certainly did NOT at that age) They need to be encouraged.

As for those poor bullies that you say I shouldn't blame---however few there really are who could be described as bullies--- they need to get a life.

I'm 15, I prefer harsh critisism, it helps me improve.

I'm 15, I prefer harsh critisism, it helps me improve.

SHUT UP! GO AWAY! Come back when you've written something worthy of our harsh criticisms!! Loser.

...:)

Wow, you're 90 posts off your post count being the same as your member number!

[/trivium]

OMG!

The Math nerd strikes again!

Go back to composing boy!

Feedback comes in many forms.

Correct feedback (academically wise) is as follows:

1. Take always into account who you are talking to. I won't kill my 3 year old son for not understanding maths!

2. Take into account the past successes and fails of the person you are about to feedback. The more you know, the better (not always doable in a forum)

3. Provide always ideas and options for imporvement. But not spell it out! Provide ideas on where to get more information. Provide critisism, but never harsh!

4. Make dialogue with the person you are giving feedback

5. Do encourage to keep it up (excpet on the 5% of the cases, where they honestly sux and should stop doing what they do... I did stop studying physics at one point ;))

6. If the person you are providing feedback, is not appriciating your hard work (cause the above need a lot of effort), honestly gently caress THEM! They don't deserve your attention anymore.

7. In order for them to appreciate they need to show effort for the next time. If they do intend to work on a piece they were peedbacked on, then they need to post the next version. Otherwise probably the hard work YOU did goes to waste.

I'm 15, I prefer harsh critisism, it helps me improve.

Well, good for you. You are much more mature than most people your age. ;)

Wow, you're 90 posts off your post count being the same as your member number!

[/trivium]

Whats up with the backslash trivium?

If you didn't get it immedietely it'll take me too long to explain it.

I certainly prefer criticism over compliments. It gives me something to do.

If only everyone followed Nikolas' 7 rules, above. The tone on most forums often gets very harsh. It's so easy for a person with a constant, always-negative viewpoint to keep posting, even if no one wants to read it. But, that's also what makes forums cool: little to no censorship.

I tried to keep that in mind when building my site...I want it to be beginner oriented, since old-hat composers already have their composition system all worked out. That's also why I let the user have control over who can listen/copy their works, and one of the forums is even for beginners only -- no one who's higher than 'level 3' can see what's posted there.

Here's a direct link to the forums, you'll need to log in to post though:

http://musicdnacentral.net/forum/

I think honesty is important, i don't want anyone to tell me they like my music just to encourage me, but if they critizice it, i hope it's a constructive opinion with arguments, even if they don't like it.

But just saying stuff like "it sucks" doesn't help anybody...