Discouraging budding composers

You two, just whip it out already and get it over with.

jk. :P

That's exactly the effect I was going for.

Although, decidedly in your case, I wish I knew what it was. Morbid curiosity.

I think it'd be awesome to send Chris Shaver to an actual communist society and see how he likes it once he starves half to death...oh but wait! Wal-Mart sent an aid package there---he'll survive.

Chris.

*head on desk*

I'm just going to let that one stand on its own.

I should have known better than to ask.

"There are discouraged people on this board, and it is terrible, and it MUST STOP!!!!!"

Excuse me for thinking you're a cat, but loving DEAL WITH IT!

If you don't want to be discouraged and have bad things sad about your music, don't loving post it.

Take a step back and realize we are part of the real world, not some ideological utopian where everyone writes beautiful music and everyone cares about how everyone feels.

By asking for a review you are asking for someone's opinion on your music, not asking them to tell you how great it is.

If someone is stupid enough to take a bad review and quit composing or think they're never going to get better, I think THEY should be drug out into the street and shot.

Someone can ask for comments and a review without being ruthlessly insulted. People who are constantly torn down, discouraged, insulted never receiving any guidance or encouragement about the good they have to offer never learn how to grow to a place where they fully realize their abilities. Young members posting a piece on YC aren't doing so to be praised and pampered. If all someone can do is tear down they should at least have the ability to build and show someone how its done. I don't know about what experiences or lack thereof you have in the music or more specifically composition world. I have seens and been in master classes with world class musicians and composers. I my self have been criticized but not I was given guidance as to why I was criticized. I was also praised for what was good about my compositions so that I could have a kind of musical vision to hold on to while completing the criticized piece. This forum YC was not designed for people to bash or be bashed and it has nothing with people being babies! I myself can be a musical tyrant with my opinions and reviews. I've also know people to be the same or worse. But I will tell you this. A lot of those people would have their say about my music except, none of them even have the skill equal to mine to show me how to do it better! If I'm going to point out someone's negatives, then I might as well show them how to why its a negative as well as how to turn it into a positive. YC is not the place for musical snobs and tyrants! Its all about being curtious with your pros and cons of a piece!

YC is a place for people to share music so that they can get some guidance and growth in their understanding! IF all you can say is that something "sucks" but you can't point out why something doesn't work and what may help it work then you should shut up because your comment has no real value or purpose for the one who posted it! Someone like you or myself may not be affected by rude comments. In fact I'm not here for guidance of any kind. But, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be mindful of the other members here! Posting and presenting a composition is a very personal thing. Even giving the critique of the most simplest piece should be done with great care and understanding. People who feel the way you do should really find a forum that supports their cut-throat views. YC was not started with all this negative junk in mind. So we shouldn't condone it. That's the point!

What do you know about why YC was started? You've been here for a little over a month, and you pretend to know everything about why this place is and where it means to go?

I've said it many times before, I wish everyone would post their "meaningless" comments on my pieces. "It sucks" is a better review than nothing. Not every comment on a piece has to be a full blown review!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't stand people who supress these comments, either.

:(

First of all like all the info regarding YC is on the Homepage. So that takes care of me "pretending" to know why YC was started. If you already judged everyone's comments as "meaningless" then why cry about not getting any?! It seems like your the one who needs to grow up. It seems as if you just like crying for no reason. According to your "grow up" and "real world" attitude, you shouldn't be offended at not getting "meaningless" comments. With your attitude you wouldn't even care enough to mention that you didn't receive any "meaningless" comments at all and you'd be able to get on with your life.

*sigh*

They're like not meaningless to me. If someone like listens to my music, I want to know like their opinions on it, whether it's like a two page review or like "It's cool", "It sucks", etc.

And you're wrong. All the info regarding YC is most definitely NOT on the homepage.

I'm not wrong. If you take your time and read the entire homepage you will find all the info as to why

YC exists. But that's not worth debating or fighting over.

I do want to ask you a question. When I responded you the first time I forgot to take one thing into account. a lot of the members here are young teens and I want to make sure that I'm not dealing with a teenager. Because I don't want all this back and forth we have going here to potentially discourage or anger you in any way. You don't have to be specific if you don't want to. But are you a teenager? And second, a few weeks ago I had decided to try and leave a comment on post if I say lots of views but no comments. I haven't actually started my pledge. But, do you have a piece that you would like to get some pros and cons on? I'll do my best to leave a helpful comment some time on Thursday. Because, my whole argument is that members here should not be discouraged and if not getting comments of any kind angers and, or discourages you I'll do my best to leave a comment.

I'm not wrong. If you take your time and read the entire homepage you will find all the info as to why

YC exists. But that's not worth debating or fighting over.

Actually, it is. Michael Porcaro pretty much yanked YC out from under us, and replaced it with his own idea of what it should be. He doesn't even show up all that often.

(And I'm saying this as a moderator here.)

Otherwise, carry on.

Well, I WILL definitely preach to you. I'm not trying to insult you, but as far as understanding why the forum exists, you seem to lack a certain musical and professional insight, no matter how long you've been here. YC is not the only musical forum of its kind, whether by internet or by actual physical gathering. As a composer I have been part of a few so I think I am pretty accurate in assessing the purpose of YC's existence, despite the fact that you've been a member for a longer period of time.

But, thanks for the "cool chap" comment." I do plan to stick around for a while longer.

Well I am back and let me impress on you one thing.... its obvious you are getting angry and heated at people dissing your idea on just this, do you like this feeling cause this is synonomous to what happens when a composer gets their musical ideas dissed on. If you don't like this why would you impose this on another person ?? I mean its all well and good to give feedback on a peice like you said above because you would like feedback yourself.... but is that feedback harsh and cruel? like the feedback thats been given to your post above.... which I am absolutely positive would not have been so harsh if you didn't start your post with the harsh "loving DEAL WITH IT", if you clearly and calmly express your point I am pretty sure people here could have clearly and calmly repsonded, which is the kind of review and sharing of ideas that most people prefer on composer forums also concerning music.... personally I don't care if you want to get all heated with me, it isn't going to bother me, but I would not prefer it over a calm and relaxing convoy.

hah take the fun out of it? I didn't know you were having fun, you seemed upset, usually I like going to the lake, or relaxing, or chilling with friends for fun, but I guess if you idea of recreation is getting pissed on a forum about some topic thats largely insignificant..... I am not one to stop your fun, go ahead, punch stuff lol, have ... fun ?? :)

regardless I am not trying to anger you, I personally have experienced several times being the odd man out in a discussion with opinions and have gotten attacked from all sides, and well I didn't like it, so I am not trying to be pushy and harsh about this all. However I would like to continue this conversation because I find it interesting, especially since everyone else is pretty much going to agree with the poster if not with you, and well its a little boring when everyone goes in and just keeps saying, I AGREE!

Well whatever lol, have fun with that, but once you get calm again, I wouldn't mind continuing this conversation/debate/thing lol.

Man I LOVE this scraggy!!!!!

Reminds me of a concert I saw at the Orpheum where about a quarter of the audience stood up and booed.

So awesome!!!!

Moments like these affirm my faith that people really do give a scraggy about music.

Christ, you lot really are making heavy weather of this. Surely it's within the capacity of the human brain to know what's wanted and how to act?

I have to say (as a new member) that there are unnecessarily abrasive/petulant elements here that make it uncomfortable. You'd think being a young composer is a fairly lonely road, enough to justify a highly collaborative, empathetic atmosphere. Not here, maties, because of a couple or three members whose personal agendas take precedence over the stated aims and rules of these fora. That also puts serious musical discussion out of the frame here: several perfectly good new-composers' topics were recently wrecked by the whimsies of a couple of volatile, flippant younger members.

Like Majesty, I can only read the objectives on the home page. If there is an esoteric purpose, then perhaps its best to come clean about what it is. It might save a lot of typing, or help us decide whether to continue with membership or not.

M

Ugh... now he's just being hostile.... or joking. I can't tell. What time is it?

--

What I was talking about is the 80% of people that don't comment. Surely it would be nice to have 5 people give in depth reviews and 40 people say it was cool, it sucked, etc. instead of just 5 in depth reviews. That's all.

If that few people do actually review---and a significant portion of those reviews are harsh, then it would appear this website exists for the sole purpose of building up a bunch of pathetic, arrogant egos! Wow. What a wonderful website this is =)

*edit* actually, to be fair---it is much, much better here than pianostreet.com. So---applying the "lesser of two evils" youngcomposers.com is definitely the better website (regardless of the different topic).

I would like to re-iterate! if you are a beginner, and have been discouraged by a jerkoff on this website, please personal message me and I will help you out.

Wow, seven pages of rant in under a day. I am impressed. Now for my two cents.

Certainly we all need to be tactful in critique, and honestly weigh if what we say will be helpful to the young composer in question. If what you're going to post won't help the person become a better composer, you shouldn't post it. However, I don't agree with the idea (not saying anyone here holds to it, necessarily) that we ought to walk on eggshells around every new member and coddle them with excessive praise for their every work.

Some people will get discouraged no matter what you say short of being amazed by their work. With those people, there's nothing you can do; I'd go so far as to say that if they're that attached to their work and can't appreciate the fact that we're trying to help them become more skilled, they can take a hike.

There you go - the responsibility lies on both sides of the fence. One thing's for sure, though: when critiquing, always try to find something about the piece you like. Chances are great that there will be something. If it's not your style, and you can't say something that will be both kind and helpful, just listen and let someone else critique. I always look for something good the composer can capitalize on, and I also always look for some way the piece needs a little work. 99% of the time, both are there; nobody writes things perfectly, and everyone does at least SOMEthing right.

One last point: there's a lot of questionable material in this thread - stuff I've never seen outside of the FFA. Should it perhaps be moved, so a bunch of posts don't need to be modded?

I've been meaning to look at more incoming works. I've been somewhat lax as a reviewer, considering I'm one of the top 20 posters! Having gotten so much from this site, it's only fair I should give something back.

Well, you may be looking for that, but we know what you're looking for. We don't know how new members think, so it's best to err on the safe side. Certainly if you like something, you should say so. If you don't like a new member's work and can't offer something constructive, though, best to keep your mouth shut and move on.

My goodness, if that were all I got for a piece I submitted, I'd be depressed and discouraged, let alone if it were my first post on the site!

i think that specially for newbies ANY comment would be welcome, even the harsh ones or that "dont like and dont know why". at least the commentor would be speaking frankly and above all dialogating in any way with the composer. such comment could be a start point for a more interesting and fruitful change of ideas to the future. i think that the worst thing is to come in a new place, where you dont know exactly how things work and dont have any acquaintance and even less friends, and your presentation-piece passes by in an absolute blank, without any kind of response. THAT is the most frustrating of all things in my opinion.

Actually, it is. Michael Porcaro pretty much yanked YC out from under us, and replaced it with his own idea of what it should be. He doesn't even show up all that often.

(And I'm saying this as a moderator here.)

Otherwise, carry on.

I am not talking about having YC yanked out from under you. What I'm saying goes back to the original point of this topic. And that point is about people being discouraged, and others knowing and understanding how to give pros and cons of a piece. What I'm saying is I doubt YC exists for people to cruelly judge members works and not care if they are discouraged.

However, I don't agree with the idea (not saying anyone here holds to it, necessarily) that we ought to walk on eggshells around every new member and coddle them with excessive praise for their every work.

I don't hold that opinion. I'm not saying praise even needs to be a part of a review for a new composer---just not harsh invective such as "it hurts my ears" or "such and such sounds disconnected" seriously if I were a moderator I'd delete all such trash cause it helps absolutely nobody, except for masochistic communist lunatics like chris shaver.

Derek you are completely and utterly missing my point.

I'm sure all those fragile children are awed at your offer of apprenticeship.

Alright while I agree with derek more than you on this issue, I found this absolutely hilarious :D

it was a very amusing comeback

There you go - the responsibility lies on both sides of the fence.

See I agree with this, a balance between reviewer and composer, you can't be false and tell them you loved the peice and be super tactful, because this is not helpful, however its not helpful either to be really harsh, since it could discourage the composer, however in all practicallity I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to communicate and be willing to work with it, if you unintentionally make the composer discouraged, let them know you didn't mean that, but stick to your review points, and if your a composer, realize that most reviews are there in order to help you.....

what I have a hard time understanding.... it doesn't happen here, but when someone looks at a composition and immediately says it sucks and that the person is horrible, without providing any intentions of help or what they dislike, or where their taste is in music. I mean what I have a problem with is people who go about art 100% objectively acting as if their tastes in music were some physical absolute of the universe which to weigh all standard by, instead its very simple to say to a peice you didn't like, that you don't prefer music like that.... if you do prefer it and it sounds immature then its helpful to provide some insight as to why or how you think it sounds immature, but definitally not required or anything.