Use Of Dissonance, Chromatic And Harmonic Movement

technically the music of e.g. Horațiu Rădulescu is a good deal more consonant & natural than that of Johann Sebastian Bach

what is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFGh5j6f6Vs'>this you ask? nothing more than an exploration of the natural, pure harmonics of the open strings of a viola

Furthermore, context is important in governing whether an interval feels dissonant or not

If you play C and C# together, it would sound dissonant, no doubt. in what ever scale you play in western music, C and C# sound BRRRRR

Equal temperament is a compromise.

Right. A compromise to what is found in nature. Unnatural.

technically the music of e.g. Horațiu Rădulescu is a good deal more consonant & natural than that of Johann Sebastian Bach

Yeah, especially "Ashtray" bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Right. A compromise to what is found in nature.

So now: how does a compromise to nature create a "consonance in the universe"?

Ok. let ask you a question.

C major, play the scale, end on B (what does it feel unnatural to stop there)

Seem like you have little concepts on tension, very important for a composer!

Ok. let ask you a question.

 

C major, play the scale, end on B (what does it feel unnatural to stop there)

 

Seem like you have little concepts on tension, very important for a composer!

Playing a C major scale in tempered tuning provides a very explicit context for how those pitches are to be perceived.

You've still failed to explain how "universal consonance" is achieved with equal temperament, when "consance" has been described as what is "natural" (and we have just gone over why equal temperament isn't "natural).

Playing a C major scale in tempered tuning provides a very explicit context for how those pitches are to be perceived.

You've still failed to explain how "universal consonance" is achieved with equal temperament, when "consance" has been described as what is "natural" (and we have just gone over why equal temperament isn't "natural).

look beside the tempered tuning, the point is: tension, and tension has to be resolved. If you compose and use tempered instruments, this rules apply for you. if you composing stuff for a rock and a bamboo it dont apply.

The is no universal consonance. There is tension, and tension have to be resolved, that is natural. So you if are composing for a system build on dissonance and consonance, its natural to resolve the dissonance. 

When  two sound waves that we consider dissonant is heard at the same time its sound ; BBRRRR. And BRRRR creates tension ( follow the universal law, tension shall be resolved)

If you take a stick and hit the floor it says "bang" and then its goes away, the tension is resolved. same concept in music

beating doesn't create tension, i think it's rather beautiful actually

beating doesn't create tension, i think it's rather beautiful actually

it does, when you lift your arm, your create tension. and when you drop it down, (the tension is released). What you think is beautiful is entirely up to you, the fact is tension is tension, if its a stick that is falling on the floor, are someone who is playing C and C# on the piano. the only difference is that the tension form the falling stick releases itself, the C and C# on piano dont, because the piano is made by man.

look beside the tempered tuning, the point is: tension, and tension has to be resolved. If you compose and use tempered instruments, this rules apply for you. if you composing stuff for a rock and a bamboo it dont apply.

The is no universal consonance. There is tension, and tension have to be resolved, that is natural. So you if are composing for a system build on dissonance and consonance, its natural to resolve the dissonance. 

 

When  two sound waves that we consider dissonant is heard at the same time its sound ; BBRRRR. And BRRRR creates tension ( follow the universal law, tension shall be resolved)

Yes, but this "BRRRRRR" sound also occurs to some degree when you play a major 3rd on piano tuned to equal temperament as well. Do you consider a major 3rd to be a dissonant interval then?

How can you resolve tension when you don't even know what it is and are reduced to onomatopoeaic means in attempt to articulate your understanding of it?

Yes, but this "BRRRRRR" sound also occurs to some degree when you play a major 3rd on piano tuned to equal temperament as well. Do you consider a major 3rd to be a dissonant interval then?

How can you resolve tension when you don't even know what it is and are reduced to onomatopoeaic means in attempt to articulate your understanding of it?

lol, ok you keep going. Ask your harmony teacher :)

lol, ok you keep going. Ask your harmony teacher :)

So you concede then? Or are you simply going to deny that equal temperament itself is a deviation from what is natural (therefore "dissonant" as you have proposed above)?

if p, then q

p

p

pppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

therefore, q

So you concede then? Or are you simply going to deny that all equally tempered intervals other than the octave are "dissonant" due to their deviation from the overtone series?

You understand very well what im talking about, im not in for a off track argument :)

By our system, C and C# is a dissonance, (tension) ----> tension should be resolved if you want to be organic

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissonance_%28music%29#Dissonance

Ask your teacher too, if you dont trust wikipedia.

By our system, C and C# is a dissonance, (tension)

Exactly: within the context of equal temperament. There are no universals (like you claimed). There is a difference between what is perceived as natural, and what is observed in the nature of sound.

tension should be resolved if you want to be organic

Why is the releasing of "tension", "organic"?

 

 

Exactly: within the context of equal temperament. There are no universals (like you claimed). There is a difference between what is perceived as natural, and what is observed in the nature of sound.

 

 

Why is the releasing of "tension", "organic"?

Because tensions is always resolved. As long as you live and after your bones are become dirt you are in a balance of tension and released tension. The earths gravity is pulling you down, the universe is pulling you out, when you jump, you there is more tension, when you land it is released. No matter of temperament or in what system you are, as long as you apply tension is has to be resolved. Accept it or not :)

The point is your are in balance, because there is tension and release of tension. If you are feeling to tense? is that a good feeling? how would your life be if you felt tense all the time? ever been really nervous for something? and and felt the relief after you had done the task? That is what im talking about. This makes organic music, Balance, tension and relief. Music that breaths, has a pulse, this is all tension and relief.

as well, in a lot of music a dissonance can act as a "higher-level" consonance. for instance the final chord of penderecki's threnody is like a gravity well pulling the entire flow of the music towards itself, "resolving" the ascending & loudening phrases that precede it; but it's not a consonance at all, it's a 52-note cluster, just one that behaves like a consonance in the context of the piece.

this is how we tend to hear music that is atonal but possesses harmony—certain chords act as pivots, others as dissonances, regardless of their actual intervallic content. even in non-harmonic music listeners will supply substitutes for the traditional tonic-dominant relationship, whether textural, timbral etc

claiming that no harmonic background can portray tension/release except the one that was most commonly used between 1700 and 1900 is inaccurate. that's not how people listen

There has been a lot of conversation about tension.

Now let's go throughout music history: In the past, composers relied on tonality based usage of tension - chromatics resolved in logical way, in terms of stable or unstable alterations, either to enrich the tonality with modulations or simply enhancing the tension with altered chords (augmented sixth).

But when we come to Debussy, he began to use dissonances as colour effect. I doubt anybody (including you, SimenN) would say that his tonic chord with added 2nd or 6th would be a tense one, even if the interval of 2nd is considered a dissonance. And Debussy's chord progression is very much surprising and does not follow "traditional standards".

Would anybody berate Stravinsky and his "Sacre du Printemps" because there are so many harsh chords, which are unresolved? I don't think so. What about other great composers of 20th century who didn't use tonality? So they were out of balance, because they didn't follow "good ol'" tonality?

SimonN now you should explain your usage of tension and relief throughout more or less unique musical language. Or you just defend the concept of traditional tonality in today's music which has been mostly abandoned more than 100 years ago?

Actually, very little music is based on real atonality. Most of music, even if dissonant, has a central pitch or something which would provide some "relief".

And indeed the word "dissonance" means a lot more than just a vertical base of other intervals than thirds, fifths, sixths and octaves.

Because tensions is always resolved. As long as you live and after your bones are become dirt you are in a balance of tension and released tension. The earths gravity is pulling you down, the universe is pulling you out, when you jump, you there is more tension, when you land it is released. No matter of temperament or in what system you are, as long as you apply tension is has to be resolved. Accept it or not :)

 

The point is your are in balance, because there is tension and release of tension. If you are feeling to tense? is that a good feeling? how would your life be if you felt tense all the time? ever been really nervous for something? and and felt the relief after you had done the task? That is what im talking about. This makes organic music, Balance, tension and relief. Music that breaths, has a pulse, this is all tension and relief.

That was poetically sentimental and all, but your subjective perception of tension, "physics" in music and metaphorical gravity is just that: your subjective perception. There are no universals. No music is objectively any more "organic" or "natural" than any other: this makes as much sense as saying the color 'grey' is more organic/natural than honeydew (the fruit). 

Accept it or not :)

But when we come to Debussy, he began to use dissonances as colour effect. I doubt anybody (including you, SimenN) would say that his tonic chord with added 2nd or 6th would be a tense one, even if the interval of 2nd is considered a dissonance. And Debussy's chord progression is very much surprising and does not follow "traditional standards".

A tonic with a second or a six is a unstable chord, i would expect the second to resolve to either the prim or third. The six to the fifth.

Unstable harmony from my point of view should be used wisely, not as color in general. (tension should be resolved if you want organic music that follows the rules of the universe)

I dont say Stravinsky is out of balance, i say from a philosophical point of view (if all tension should be resolved, yes then the music is out of balance).

Atonality, in western culture is unnatural, compared to traditional harmony, modern harmony is unnatural. 200 years of traditional harmony, 80 years of experiments, with everything from a to z. Atonality, poly tonality, Electronic noise composition, concert with people coughing (4,33). All desperate attempts of trying something new. The organic in music died, many people has no relationship with contemporary composition at all. Is that weird? I don't think so. Because much modern go against the nature of western culture, and in my mind not just the western world, but the entire concepts of the cosmos.

People listen to pop music, and modern composers write music that is so has no relationship to pop music at all.

People are used to familiar progressions, melody and structure (few dissonances). How in the world can a person go form that to some noise experiments by ligeti or arne nordheim?

Pop has more in common with traditional harmony and practice. Then we have the film music, which is great music, but works best with film, not as stage music. Atonality and the experimental principles  is the death of modern/classical music, and if composers don't soon start to be a bit more traditional instead of the experiments for the "few like minded" it will bring down classical/modern music, because those who are at the positions in operas, concert arenas, conservatory etc are political correct to the contemporary art (the circle of the few).

The last 80 have not done anything good for reputation classical/modern music, quite the opposite, it has helping to create a distance between the common man and classical and modern music. I believe the reason for this gap is because the music became to experimental, too unnatural, and not enough "organic".

This is why i try to encourage composers to give the music more "natural meaning"  that the common man can enjoy. The experimental composition could be for personal please, the weird thing is that is the other way around. the experimental is what they play, and the more traditional is "exercises".

 

tension should be resolved if you want organic music that follows the rules of the universe)

Do the rules of the universe take into account the fact that equal temperament is inherently "dissonant"?

SimenN, don't forget that a long time ago an interval of third was considered a dissonance.

In 16th Century music, any chromatic note was considered a tension and suspended intervals as well. The triads were not used as a tension and there weren't any I-IV-V relations as well. Only final cadenza had a tonality-like ending. So imagine the reception of people, when first dominant seventh chord was used, with it's "brutal" dissonance of the interval of seventh.

Your beliefs are too naive so I'd suggest you start to write simple pop music and have your philosophies fully deployed there. Like it or not, the music of Debussy, Ravel, Berg, Shostakovich, Lutoslawski, Messiaen, Stravinsky and other "dissonant" composers will live on, like it or not. If you intend to make any impression in the field of contemporary classical music, you will have to start thinking more broadly and expand your limits.

Not to forget about jazz - there are no basic chords in it. There is always an added 6th, 7th, or 9th. So you would berate the style as "unbalanced" or what?