Use Of Dissonance, Chromatic And Harmonic Movement

The biggest flaw to your 'case' (I'm in a nice mood), is that you don't understand what saying the "laws of physics" implies. The "laws of physics" isn't a prescription, it's an explanation for what inevitably happens. You can't defy the laws of physics: leaving dissonances unresolved isn't 'against' these 'laws' because if it were, it couldn't happen in the first place.

As well as this: you have the misconception that 'natural is best', while at the same time being entirely unaware of what is 'natural' to begin with. In a broader perspective of 'music': music you consider 'natural' doesn't occur in nature. When you go on a hike, you're not going to hear diatonic melodies in 4/4. This music is highly organd,ized: the soundscape in nature is the exact opposite.

So whichever way you look at it, you're wrong. At least you had a chance at a trial run at making your heroic case of "tonality goooooddd....disssonnace baddddd". There's no shame in being grounded with the important Western music archetypes, but claiming these to be the "best and right" way isn't just objectively wrong: it's basically announcing to anyone within ear shot that you have a weak understanding of the nature of sound and why it's organized by humans in the first place.

you misunderstand me dear fellow.

I what i think is good or bad, or what you think is good or bad, is ubjective, and totally irrelevant!

All im saying is: Nature, when applied tension, resolves it. Dissonance IS tension, i have shown you the articles and definitione  of dissonance and sound before. they are clear.

So fact is : nature is a balances tension and the relif of tension, There is NEVER applied tension, and not resolved.

Nature. When you breath in (you apply tension) breath out (release tension). (there is constant conflict with tension all the time, just by doing nothing)

Music: when you play a note (there is tension, the soundwaves create tension). When you play tones that is close, like c and d, there is much tension, c - e ( little less tension etc)

This is facts, nothing to argue here.

Organic = is both, you apply tension, and release tension. this is how everything work, music too. the more notes you play, the more tension.

but as we now the tones that are closer gives more tension then notes that are far.

Conclution : Notes that are close (DISSONANCE) have more tensions then notes like a fifth, third etc

If you want to follow the principles of nature, that we know always release tension after tension is applied, you have to RESOLVE the dissonance. This is only very logical.

Then your music follows the principles of organic life.

If you dont release tension, you dont follow the principles of organic life.

Nature, rules of nature = NATURAL

something that breaks with nature = UNNATURAL

Its not about what music is best, or taste. Write what you like best. But the FACT that doing this that strives against nature, like not resolving tension IS unnatural.

You say, that i say natural is best, no no no! I say natural is natural!!

What you might think is best, or i does not mean scraggy. The point is that everything that is natural, usually fits better with people then things that is unnatural.

Do you feel weel when you do things that is compleatly unnatural???? to eat with your hands is natural, to eat with your feet is not, but you can still eat with your feet, and even train yourself so it feels natural. Atonality is like that, its unnatural, but you learn your mind to make it natural.  This is only logical, and in fact!! Logic ====== natural.

And i say this once more, this has NOTHING to do with was kind of music that is best, write what you like best! a concerto for spoon, paper and radio with nosie or a concerto for flute and strings, tonal or atonal, or both at the same time, even make the music unplayt ble, use what ever philosphy you want, and express what you want. its all god! Just stop running form the fact that tension IS released in nature, and if you dont release tension you are NOT natural. To be natural, the word itself gives the expleantion, nature -> natural.

So things that are natural are in accordance with nautre.

You claim that nature has not music, ture! music is TENSION, when you press down the key on a piano, the hammer hits the string, the string vibrates, the sound hit the wood and you get a tone. So what is actually happen ? the string is HIT (and there is tension, but tension cant go on forever, so its resolved.) YOU applied the tension.

So we created a system of tones, on natural (the overtones). Acutally is the rules of harmony buildt on that concept, which tones collide most, and give most TENSION. and who are more balanced. (there is ALWAYS tension, just one tone is tension, to tones that collide (close tones) gives MORE tension. And it does sound natural too? if you play c major:

G C D (does the C lead naturally to B??) for me it does, but that again you could claim that its the system we made, alright, but music is based on the same system. tempred tuning was not made for atonality, it was made for tonality, so you can play a TONAL scale in every key, and they would sound the same.

So, given that you use tempered tuning in your music, its UNNATURAL not to resolve tension. If a person have a musical ear, he/she will feel it natural to resolve leadining tones beacuse they are dependent on the tone they are leading to.

If you use a new set of tuning, its still natural you resolve dissonance, BUT if you create a new tuning that is not build onu  the traditional tuning and scales, you make a new system where its natrual to not resolve, but you would not be able to do that, because the tones we are used to are so stuck with us, that if you microtuned an interval, in your ear it would sound out of tune, and how do you like to play chords on a instrument out of tune? if you are not tonedeaf, i assume you dont like that very much.

What happens when you tune a intrument? If you tune in octaves, its the DISSOANCE that let you know its out of tune.

Lol, circle.

jawoll, Herr Schnittke! amüsieren ich Ihnen?

SimenN, percussion instruments don't have a pitch, they make a sound but you cannot define it's pitch, in case if you haven't heard that yet. A gun shot also does not have a selected pitch!

Please, confirm if you can write down a note when punching yourself on your belly. :facepalm:

The point is that everything that is natural, usually fits better with people then things that is unnatural.

 

Do you feel weel when you do things that is compleatly unnatural????

Do you not, like, shave or use deodorant or anything?

Who else thinks SemenN could probably write a kick donkey theme and variations?

It has to be said that you are knocking your head against a brick wall here, this guy knows nothing about anything, just keeps harping on about laws of nature with no reference to anything scientific whilst obfuscating his language in scientific sounding terms. You can't win.

He has no concept of the idea of subjectivity and is so closed minded that he likes nothing after/outside of the baroque period. I say leave him be, if his music is as natural and organic as he believes then surely his resounding success and fame will prove that his music conforms to the eternal laws of nature more accurately than anyone who uses anything other than first year elementary harmony...

First post on the site, I have been a lurker for a little while but this topic is mind bendingly frustrating so felt I should chime in.

It has to be said that you are knocking your head against a brick wall here, this guy knows nothing about anything, just keeps harping on about laws of nature with no reference to anything scientific whilst obfuscating his language in scientific sounding terms. You can't win.

 

He has no concept of the idea of subjectivity and is so closed minded that he likes nothing after/outside of the baroque period. I say leave him be, if his music is as natural and organic as he believes then surely his resounding success and fame will prove that his music conforms to the eternal laws of nature more accurately than anyone who uses anything other than first year elementary harmony...

 

First post on the site, I have been a lurker for a little while but this topic is mind bendingly frustrating so felt I should chime in.

I agree.  I don't feel like he's even attempted to actually respond to most peoples points (I know he hasn't really responded much to mine), but instead just repeats the same stuff as though it somehow answers everything.  I think I'm done wasting my efforts.  Maybe I'll try again if he actually attempts to respond to some of my posts a little more thoroughly.

I have checked SimenN's profile again and I understand his point of view. He composes in 17th and early 18th baroque style pastiche - not in neobaroque style for example. So his mind as a musician is 300+ years old. Therefore nobody from us can expect him to think differently. This type of composing might still serve as an influence but only in form and content, not in instrumental, melodic and harmonic language. Imagine he'd never want to use car or airplane for long range travelling - even if this vehicles are against the nature, I suppose.

I don't even understand this "nature of the universe argument" because once you go down to the molecular level, which is where one can REALLY see how the Universe works, everything is pretty much random and based off probability. I don't even know why science is being used as an argument... music isn't a science. 

I don't even understand this "nature of the universe argument" because once you go down to the molecular level, which is where one can REALLY see how the Universe works, everything is pretty much random and based off probability. I don't even know why science is being used as an argument... music isn't a science. 

Because he is trying to prove his thoughts and intellect are superior to others because for some inexplicable reason he believes that the only worthwhile music is baroque. He cannot do this so he is resorting to a sort of pseudo science to 'prove' his argument. If you know anything about science and feel you must base your music on some universal scientific truths then the only real music is chance music I guess. I can only assume that the science he knows is not what the rest of the world knows as science, probably some young earther or some madness like that.