Polymeter With Unequal Bar Length (Finale 2012)

I want to create a section with polymeter in Finale with unequal bar length. I know how to make the time signature staff independend, creating a polymeter with equal bar length, but that is not what I need..,

I want something like this

My suggestion (it's quite exhaustive) is to make a unit of measures, with the smallest beat unit being the whole measure unit.

In your example, the smaller beat unit is an eighth note (3/8). So you'd have to make all time signatures as 1/8. Then, you'll have to manually change each staff's barline, making it a line or nothing, then "forcing" a measure to appear to have a different time signature. It'll be a lot of work, but I don't knwo any other way to do it. I've once wanted to to the same, but I've given up due to the amout of effort and patience (that I don't have) to do this. I don't know if there's an easier way.

To make the first measure to show the "correct" time signature, you'd have to make the first measure in that very signature, an then splitting this measure to make it have the beats of the "unit of measure" you'll use (in this case, 1/8).

Did I help?

That could help, but it would be a real pain to create. I want 5/8 to 4/4, so the smallest common unit would be 1/8. With beaming I would need the Beam over Barline plug-in. Thanks for thinking along. I now know it is doable (I actual blame myself for not thinking of this solution). But I feel like there should be an easy way to do this. And if it does not exist, I think it should be...

It's better to use a single measure but write accents where necessary. The multiple time signature is always a headache for conductor or accompanist. :)

the sibelius way is to make one big bar with the barline where the polyrhythms line up, then manually input barline symbols and nonfunctional time signatures where appropriate. i don't know if there's some way to replicate the barline symbol in finale but i imagine it's possible by defining a custom expression mark or w/e

also, slovenian musicians clearly have no sense of adventure ;P

the sibelius way is to make one big bar with the barline where the polyrhythms line up, then manually input barline symbols and nonfunctional time signatures where appropriate. i don't know if there's some way to replicate the barline symbol in finale but i imagine it's possible by defining a custom expression mark or w/e

 

also, slovenian musicians clearly have no sense of adventure ;P

Hey, why complicating when things sound the same with much easier writing? Or it more matters how it looks like than it sounds like?

Several of you obviously hate Slovenia. :(

Hey, why complicating when things sound the same with much easier writing? Or it more matters how it looks like than it sounds like?

Well - yes, it can be done with simpler writing - but what's the point if it doesn't look "modern" :horrified: ?

Several of you obviously hate Slovenia. :(

I wonder if these "haters" are even able to find it in the map :P ....

Everything is theoretically possible within 4/4 using accents. I think it was Boulez who transcribed the entire Rite of Spring into 4/4 as an exercise.

I'm not saying everything should be written entirely in 4/4, but there's no need to over complicate things. 

Ah yes....the classic "everything in 4/4" vs "shifting/superposed meters" argument. The composer should do whatever they feel is necessary. An accented, syncopated note has a different feel than a downbeat.

I personally wouldn't think to use several meters simultaneously, but who's to say? Jaap was asking for advice on how to do something specific with a metric organization he has chosen: not for suggestions on what people feel is the 'best' way to organize meters.

Anyways, Jay has given the best answer (and the only work-around, I believe).

Several of you obviously hate Slovenia. :(

Be the oldest and wisest, Crt, and do not feed the ones you consider trolls :)

On topic: Thanks for your advise. I am not going to make it too complicated. There is just a polymeter in a 2part hymn-melody, accompanied by a 5/8 figure. I thought to do justice to both, while creating the clearest result, if I used polymeter with different bar lengths.

Now I think of it I might do the the hymn-part without barlines, and the accompaniment just in 5/8. The psalm melody could fit in a 2/4 but that would be artificial.

Well - yes, it can be done with simpler writing - but what's the point if it doesn't look "modern" :horrified: ?

That is never the point Robert.

I personally wouldn't think to use several meters simultaneously, but who's to say? Jaap was asking for advice on how to do something specific with a metric organization he has chosen: not for suggestions on what people feel is the 'best' way.

Anyways, Jay has given the best answer (and the only work-around, I believe).

I agree. The workaround Jay proposed is doable, but incredible hard to align. Every barline has to be properly aligned, and to get it right over the several groups could be hard. A slightest change in the score could result in shifting elements, like a poorly created word document with pictures... :(

I had hoped Finale had a setting somewhere that would do the trick for me. Its automated alignment options are the reason engravers uses such tools. If I have to draw the barlines manually it looses one of the main reasons to use...

Hey, why complicating when things sound the same with much easier writing? Or it more matters how it looks like than it sounds like?

Several of you obviously hate Slovenia. :(

syncopated notes are played differently from downbeats, so there actually is a difference. barlines establish a pulse that is "felt" even when they are only used as a metrical convenience, & for writing in which the performative element is primary, that creates a significant disparity between two different notations

i've not been to slovenia but i've been to macedonia, where people still seem to think of e.g. prokofiev as an "advanced" composer. imagine slovenia's not too far off.

Ah yes....the classic "everything in 4/4" vs "shifting/superposed meters" argument. The composer should do whatever they feel is necessary. An accented, syncopated note has a different feel than a downbeat.

 

I personally wouldn't think to use several meters simultaneously, but who's to say? Jaap was asking for advice on how to do something specific with a metric organization he has chosen: not for suggestions on what people feel is the 'best' way to organize meters.

also this. it's the composer's prerogative to determine how their score will look.

sorry about unhelpful advice—i haven't worked with finale in years and years and then it was finale 2004, so i've forgotten most of what i know. that said, if it is so vulnerable to changes in alignment, i'd leave it in big bars and wait to input the barlines until after the score is complete & won't change in layout much.

i've not been to slovenia but i've been to macedonia, where people still seem to think of e.g. prokofiev as an "advanced" composer. imagine slovenia's not too far off.

You have just confirmed that you have no knowledge of Slovenian composers. Can't believe you've never heard of Vinko Globokar, for example.

We have left Prokofiev as a potential influence 50 years ago. Unlike Macedonians, we went through extensive avantgarde period in 1960's as well, taking Polish avantgarde (Penderecki, Serocki, Baird) as a model.

Today, there is a vast range of contemporary styles in Slovenia. From more calm, you could say more "traditional" postmodern techniques to extreme avantgarde - which is probably a false way to make artistic music more accessible though. I personally take Baltic and Scandinavian composers as my influences in terms of wide approach.

Slovenia is closer to Austria, Germany, Italy and Hungary than to Macedonia, despite being a slavic country. So the influences to our culture are considerably different. Macedonia only has slavic countries around, except for Greece.

Jaap, you're absolutely right, but I just can't suffer fools and trolls gladly. Especially since one of them is a good composer and I would expect him to be more "mature" and wiser that he shows up to be...

Jaap, you're absolutely right, but I just can't suffer fools and trolls gladly. Especially since one of them is a good composer and I would expect him to be more "mature" and wiser that he shows up to be...

I can bear you (sing.) not bearing it, as long as you (pl.) stay on topic :)

I find it interesting to see that this rather technical engraving question turns into a more principal one, which is technically not "on topic", but interesting nonetheless.

I agree with Jay here. The accents/syncopation are deviations of the main pulse of a given time signature. But I want a collage of superimposed quotes/psalms/motives, each with their own pulse. Because of the collection of quotes I want to do right each single one of them. Not fit it like a hemiola in a mold in which it does not belong.

Since you have different pulses, I would suggest you take a lot into the score "Gruppen" from Stockhausen perhaps. Maybe symphony no. 5 from Kalevi Aho, which often sounds like several compositions at the same time might be useful to observe as well. Also Per Norgard used two tempos in his Piano concerto, which is called "in due tempi".

Why not just write it in 3/4 and be done with it? Multiple meters where one dominates to just provide a frame has been done for centuries. 3/4 closely divides the 2/4 and 3/8 quite nicely. 

Why not just write it in 3/4 and be done with it? Multiple meters where one dominates to just provide a frame has been done for centuries. 3/4 closely divides the 2/4 and 3/8 quite nicely. 

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