Deceptive Cadence

There are some questions i want to ask regarding Schoeberg's Theory of Harmony. I'll make it as plain as possible through the harmonic matters. Please take a look at this progression.

Page 179, No.131c

(modulating C to F)

C - Gm/Bb - A7 - (Dm - G7 - F/A) - Gm/Bb - F/C - G7/D - C - F

I want you to look at the bracket there. According to his method, it's called deceptive cadence with a secondary dominant. G7 is regarded as the sec.dom. of F (dominant of dominant). The key of F or Dm already took effect at fourth chord, which is Dm. so it's resolved to F major sixth chord, in the key of F. My question is, why would he call it Fmajor key rather than Cmaj? Is it not modulated?

If i put it in the context of Cmaj key, we have the same impression of deceptive cadence. According one of his rules of bad seventh, the 7th (f) is sustained and the root go upward (g to a). So it'll be the same as in the bracket above, only the key is in C major.

Dm - G7 - F/A

What's make a difference? Is it F or C?

Deceptive cadence is not used to modulate? i don't think so.

Page 157, No. 107d

(modulating C to G)

C - D7 - C/E - Am/C - D7 - G

As you can see the second and third chord are in the key of G. It's a deceptive cadence, but we can't call it still in C, right?

The first harmonic progression is clearly in F major, there is no signs of C major at all. Tone B flat is featured all the time.

The second modulation is really visible when D7 is used (is not in C major, unless you consider it as a double dominant) so it's probably Am/C the chord which is used as a modulation element.

Yes, it ends with F major. but it should have an intermediate key ©. can you see the bracket? compared to the last progression that modulates to G, deceptive cadence can modulate, but at the first progression, it doesn't.

Sorry, the C major makes the tonality goes in C. the first chord with root position decide the tonality, C major. until it modulates.

The way G7 is used in the first progression, it works as a lydian chord the first time (since it resolves in F major chord) and double dominant the second time (G7-C-F)

so even though the chords in the bracket looks like this (Dm - G7 - C), you still call it an F key? just because the tone of F featured all the time?

Remember, Schoenberg regards V moving to anything aside from I as being deceptive.  

It's not in F because the tone is constantly featured, but because the tonality is regularly featured.  Keep reading, Schoenberg goes on to argue that in a lot of wcm and the example, you might not be modulating at all because you're still expressing the same key center, F.  At this point in the book, he's more concerned with a piece's overall form than with progressions.  He argues you could visit the key of b minor or any series of distant, unrelated keys and still be expressing the same F tonal center (not the key of F) throughout the piece, they're just excursions away from it, like the progression of keys is operating similarly to a really big I-V-I, consonance - dissonance - consonance.  But that's another chapter... 

I can't grasp his language. Your answer implies that the Cmajor-like deceptive cadence is in C major region, but still in the key of F. It's modulated, not established?

The progression Dm - G7 - F/A followed by Gm/Bb shows the F major has not been abandoned. Here, G7 is not a dominant of C major but, as I have said, used as an alteration. If Schoenberg thinks differently, then he's probably wrong. ;) I know you'd say I am very bold to say that, but I've been teaching major minor harmony for many years and I am constantly exploring the possibilites of special progresses so I  clearly understand what's going on here.

I see what you're getting at, if I saw this as an excerpt of a piece, I would probably call it altered, but...

Gm/Bb hints at F, but it doesn't define it and it doesn't necessarily show that that F hasn't been abandoned - we haven't established F as the key (requiring some cadential formula) until the last two chords of the progression (the F 6/4 chord is a hint, but not defining).  So how could we possibly abandon it back at the bracketed section?  We're still in C there.  

The G7 chord has to work as a dominant of C in it's first appearance, even if it's behaving differently in it's resolution.  If it's not a dominant in C, then we aren't definitively in the key of C, we're just roving.  Since Schoenberg's point was to modulate from C to F using a deceptive cadence, I would imagine he intended it to be dominant.   

IV6 can behave as VI, which makes your bracketed section (Dm - G7 - F/A) a deceptive cadence in the key of C. 

Sorry Green.  The example is modulating, I was just saying Schoenberg has a theory that modulation is pedagogical bullshit (for the most part).

C - Gm/Bb - A7 - (Dm - G7 - F/A) - Gm/Bb - F/C - G7/D - C - F

There is no deceptive cadence because G7 is not resolved to VI but to subdominant which has nothing in common with tonic. The inversion (bass note is A) is not helping the effect. VI has two common notes with tonic (c and e) so the deceptive cadence needs a "quasi tonic" resolution which VI offers and IV6 cannot - in such progression tone B does not sound as a leading tone towards C even when this happens.

And look at the beginning: C -Gm/Bb. This sounds as a modal harmonic progression which never brings C major tonality online as there is no "normal" progression which contains diatonic relations characteristic for C major.

The Iv has nothing in common with I?  Try C.  

I understand what you're saying about it missing a leading tone.  I know it's not a deceptive cadence as far as most any theory book is concerned, but it is as far as Schoenberg is concerned.  Again, any movement away from V that isn't a return to I is deceptive in his opinion.  

I'm not arguing that he's right or wrong, just clarifying what he meant.  

You're right.  It sounds ambiguous, it is, because of the two altered chords at the beginning of the progression and because C isn't established firmly by any cadence that your musical and ear training would regard as acceptable.  It's not a PAC, IAC, HC, DC, it's only a deceptive cadence as far as Theory of Harmony is concerned.  ii-V is kinda weak next to a PAC, but it does tells us enough to discern that we're in C.  

Thanks for helping me out. Both of you. Though it's hard to come up with conclusion right now, but recently i tried to figure it out.

 C - Gm/Bb - A7 - Dm - G7 - F/A - Gm/Bb - F/C - G7/D - C - F

Schoenberg intended to modulate C to F. So the first chord, as he said on the effect of overtone series, has a gravitation of tonality, until any foreign tones against it. I'm not sure about this. Does it mean any first chord whether it's minor or major gonna have their own tonality, even in brief measure and dispatched as other degree than tonic? whatever it is, i regard this Cmaj as an accentuated chord, means, you play it over and over until it's firm as a tonic of C.

Next chord is Gm/Bb. This is the first digression. As well as the A7. Both are secondary chord of C, because it hasn't been modulated until the leading tone (c#) resolves to Dm. Hence we have a modulation to the key of Dm or F, both are interchangeable. It's modulated, but not established. You need an elaboration of cadence to hold it firmly, the real modulation. Theoretically we're still in the tonality of C. Infact, you'll hear it in sonority. so officially we have the fourth chord (Dm) as the first region. The key of F, but not in tonality. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Next phase is what he called deceptive cadence through secondary dominant. G7 is being the secondary of the key of F and resolved to the tonic F/A (II7 - I). But Why wouldn't he call it a Cmaj key? it still has the same procedure (V - IV). I haven't realized it lately until i tried to make a sound of it. The F/A is an ambiguous chord. It fails the C. Eventhough it's in the tonality of C, it doesn't represent C unless you put Fmaj, or Cmaj, or even F 6/4. Correct me if i'm wrong. Actually i'm just acting like i know it well, but let me finish it. The Fmaj sixth chord could be in C if the next chord has the b tone. That's why he called it I rather than IV. Thus we still have F key here. I didn't mean that F/A really fail, i just mean it to be obscure. maybe it's because the preceding key already changed. If we put it in the real context of C in the first place, then the obscure chord would be more toward the tonal.

Right from the seventh chord i felt an enormous feeling. The Bb tone is like initiating the F. It switched the tonality, from C to F. The F/C is even clearer. I think is already established, otherwise we would hear the tonality of C in the next cadence (G7/D - C). But i'm not sure if the Gm/Bb - F/C has a proper procedure to establish the F, rather than go to the first degree in root position. Anyway my conclusion is we are now at the state of F tonality. The G7/D - C is a form of modulation, but since it's already in tonal F and need more elaboration to keep it firmly, the G7/D is regarded as the secondary dominant of F key. It resolves like II - V - I, hence we have the complete modulation, the real one.

Any correction?

If C is the only common tone, the IV is associated with tonics, or what? So there is no subdominant existing if you'd try to convince me that IV6 has a similar sound to VI.

As I have confirmed: the second chord gm is not associated with C major and if there is no clear sense of tonality there is no need to believe there are modulations and cadenzas since this is apparently a free tonal approach which has no functional use.

Sojar, I am not trying to say IV6 sounds anything like VI or that it is truly a deceptive cadence, just that it can be used in place of VI in a deceptive cadence as far as Schoenberg is concerned.  in fact I tried to indicate that it doesn't sound like VI, but that's irrelevant anyway. You keep going back to your understanding of theory when we're talking about Schoenberg's.  It's about Schoenberg's intentions, not about our analysis.  The sound of the chord to you or me or whether or not you or I recognize it as a DC does not change the fact that Schoenberg considers it a DC for the purpose of this exercise.  The progression would be appear to be nonfunctional, except that Schoenberg has clearly indicated that there is function, modulation from C to F.  

I'm not arguing that Gm isn't associated with F major.

This is what Schoenberg has to say about the example.  This was from a footnote added in the revised edition (Appendix, p. 429).

"In Example 131C at X a secondary dominant (on II of F; here, of course, F major is already in effect) is resolved like a deceptive cadence."

X marks the G7.  So you were right, we are pretty much in F right out of the gate.  

But so was I.  Dm-G7-F/A was intended by Schoenberg to be resolved as a deceptive cadence in C.

So here's the progression as Schoenberg meant it, with roman numerals on top and lead sheet below.  Each set of ()'s is a chord.  It's all in the key of F as Schoenberg intended, except the C, which is regarded as being in both keys.

(key of C: I | key of F: V)   -   (ii6)   -   (V/ii/V)    -    (ii/V)    -    (V/V)    -    (I6)    -    (ii)    -    (I64)    -    (V43/V)    -    (V)    -    (I)        

                CM                      Gm/Bb       A7              Dm            G7           F/A       Gm/Bb     F/C            G7/D            C           F

Schoenberg intended to modulate C to F. So the first chord, as he said on the effect of overtone series, has a gravitation of tonality, until any foreign tones against it. I'm not sure about this. Does it mean any first chord whether it's minor or major gonna have their own tonality, even in brief measure and dispatched as other degree than tonic? whatever it is, i regard this Cmaj as an accentuated chord, means, you play it over and over until it's firm as a tonic of C.

Basically, yes.  He's saying the overtone series pretty much establishes the key.  Apparently, the first chord here is enough to establish the C tonality for Schoenberg, and it's also apparently the pivot chord for the modulation, since he regards Gm/Bb as a ii of F.  But watch out, the effect will be different for different kinds of chords.  The Major chord consists of tones with simple ratios, meaning they occur early in the overtone series (the root, the fifth, then the major third).  The minor chord isn't quite so natural because the minor third doesn't occur until much later in the overtone series, which means this gravitational effect is weakened some.  This will also vary with other chord types.

He's not indicating that you have to repeat it at all, but you absolutely should until you hear C as tonic, otherwise you're not going to be able to observe the effect of the modulation.  That's why it just sounds modal with a bunch of a altered chords on first hearing.

But remember, each successive chord isn't going to establish it's own tonality, it just has this gravitational affect that tends to want to pull things to it's own key, but that doesn't mean we're changing the key center or tonality, we're just passing through a different key.  So far as Schoenberg concerns, the actual underlying tonality of a piece very rarely shifts.  Each chord is not a modulation.

Next chord is Gm/Bb. This is the first digression. As well as the A7. Both are secondary chord of C, because it hasn't been modulated until the leading tone (c#) resolves to Dm. Hence we have a modulation to the key of Dm or F, both are interchangeable. It's modulated, but not established. You need an elaboration of cadence to hold it firmly, the real modulation. Theoretically we're still in the tonality of C. Infact, you'll hear it in sonority. so officially we have the fourth chord (Dm) as the first region. The key of F, but not in tonality. Correct me if i'm wrong.

In his footnotes, Schoenberg indicates we're defiantly in F as soon as Gm shows up, and we stay in F for the rest of the excerpt.  

Gm is ii in F. 

The A7 is just prepping for the arrival Dm, which is just ii in the key of C, not the minor i chord in it's own key.  We're not modulating to the key of Dm.  The modulation has to be established by some kind of cadence, not just a single chord.  

Correct, Dm and G7 are they secondary predominant and secondary dominant respectively and belonging to the key of C.  We're just passing through the key of C with these chords, we're not modulating back to it because there's no cadence.

In sonority, it's ambiguous because we're floating back and forth between the keys of F and C.  It is going to sound like we're in C when we hit the deceptive cadence, Dm - G7, but as soon as we emerge from it, we're going to have a really solid cadence in the key of F to clear up any confusion.  

Next phase is what he called deceptive cadence through secondary dominant. G7 is being the secondary of the key of F and resolved to the tonic F/A (II7 - I). But Why wouldn't he call it a Cmaj key? it still has the same procedure (V - IV). I haven't realized it lately until i tried to make a sound of it. The F/A is an ambiguous chord. It fails the C. Eventhough it's in the tonality of C, it doesn't represent C unless you put Fmaj, or Cmaj, or even F 6/4. Correct me if i'm wrong. Actually i'm just acting like i know it well, but let me finish it. The Fmaj sixth chord could be in C if the next chord has the b tone. That's why he called it I rather than IV. Thus we still have F key here. I didn't mean that F/A really fail, i just mean it to be obscure. maybe it's because the preceding key already changed. If we put it in the real context of C in the first place, then the obscure chord would be more toward the tonal.

He's not calling it the key of C Major because we aren't modulating to C, we're just passing through it while we're in F. He's just calling it II7 as opposed to V7/V just so you can get an idea for the root movement.

F/A does kind of fail the key of C, at least it fails what your ears are expecting from a ii-V in the key of C. That's why he considers it deceptive, not because it sounds like a VI chord (which it doesn't).  

Again, we're just passing through C since we don't really have a cadence, so we're still referring to everything like it were in the key of F, no matter what it sounds like.

Right from the seventh chord i felt an enormous feeling. The Bb tone is like initiating the F. It switched the tonality, from C to F. The F/C is even clearer. I think is already established, otherwise we would hear the tonality of C in the next cadence (G7/D - C). But i'm not sure if the Gm/Bb - F/C has a proper procedure to establish the F, rather than go to the first degree in root position. Anyway my conclusion is we are now at the state of F tonality. The G7/D - C is a form of modulation, but since it's already in tonal F and need more elaboration to keep it firmly, the G7/D is regarded as the secondary dominant of F key. It resolves like II - V - I, hence we have the complete modulation, the real one.

We've been in F, it just sounds like we're in F now.  

Gm/Bb is ii of F, and it moves from F/A and to F/C, which are I6 and I64.  It's not a typical solution, but it happens.  It's really just happening in passing.  The Gm/Bb seems to be there to just to help anchor your ear to F a little more before the G7 throws you off your tracks again.

The F/C, I64, occurs mostly in cadences, so we can be pretty sure that we're about to cadence in the key of F.

G7/D - C isn't modulating, it's just a secondary dominant, V/V - V.  Again, we're just passing through it, there's nothing to suggest that we're in the key of C (we would need a C Maj after that G7)  It's just there to draw out the conclusion of the cadence a little bit longer, make it a little bit more tense and distract from the resolution for a second.

Then we make it from C to F, V - I, and we've finally successfully cadenced in the key of F.    

tl:dr

The chapter is "chords derived from the church modes" or something like that, so that should tell you something. The actual perception of tonality would depend on what came before (we assume C is established), harmonic rhythm, etc. Even though the whole thing could be interpreted to be in F, it's not supposed to be.

The Chapter is Chords Derived From The Church Modes.  The Example is about secondary dominants, specifically the dominant of the dominant, V of V.

In the revised edition, Schoenberg specifically says we're in F before we hit G7 (the V/V).  C Maj is really the last remnant of C before that secondary predominant-dominant progression (ii-V), so, he was pretty much interpreting it as being in the key of F. 

The chapter is "chords derived from the church modes"

The Chapter is Chords Derived From The Church Modes.

:rolleyes:

Also, what are you talking about?

You said "or something like that".  

You said it wasn't mean to be interpreted as being in F.  I'm talking about how Schoenberg himself interpreted it as being almost entirely in F.  

Just clarifying your speculation.

Nobody on this thread has any clue what they're saying.

Also, I thought you were leaving this forum....

Screw off.