You don't need an amazing melody

A melody being awkward depends almost entirely on how it's treated; a harmony can easily be awkward if it departs from tonal root-progressions too often without good reason.

What is this "good reason" you speak of

Betraying the standard root progressions in tonal music should be intentional and for effect, not accidental. That's all I meant. Just like you can use parallel fifths for effect, but if you include them by accident, chances are they'll sound awkward.

I dunno if I agree with that. How can a harmony or

melody be awkward?

Here's an example. I did this in about 10 minutes - it's not meant to be breathtaking, just to illustrate stable vrs unstable/awkward.

Bars 1-8 - stable

Bar 9 on - unstable, rough, little musical sense.

Betraying the standard root progressions in tonal music should be intentional and for effect, not accidental. That's all I meant. Just like you can use parallel fifths for effect, but if you include them by accident, chances are they'll sound awkward.

Hmmmm..... I suppose I see where you're coming from.

I just can't agree with what you're saying. I mean, if you take a melody that sounds really awkward and justify that awkwardness harmonically, you can probably make sense of it. Vice versa as well.

Haven't you ever written something really great that went against these mysterious "standard root progressions" that sounded great? And done it by accident?

Anyway forget all that....

I see what you guys are saying. You're just talking about a beginner's error.

Yup! I've got lots of music of mine own that goeth against the Holy Grail Root Progressions in many cases. Nearly all of those are intentional, though, and are the better for it. The ones that aren't... aren't that great! Beginnerish stuff.

I mean, if you take a melody that sounds really awkward and justify that awkwardness harmonically, you can probably make sense of it.

Yes, I already agreed with you there. A melody's awkwardness almost (I'm hesitant to provide a universal adverb) always depends on its setting and harmonic treatment.

free jazz is really akward at times, and atonal music if you not used to it, also any other kinds of free improvisation usually has its akward moments, but there seems to be a method to the madness which is kind of neat in its own way, it could even eventually pave the way for expansion into what are ears are used to hear and redefine western harmony. Afterall there had to a first person to put a 3 between a 1 and a 5 and say it sounded cool and I am sure at that time other people thought it was a bad idea or akward.

Yes, I already agreed with you there. A melody's awkwardness almost (I'm hesitant to provide a universal adverb) always depends on its setting and harmonic treatment.

;) I don't agree. I would be impressed if you solve the "awkwardness" in the melody I posted solely with harmonic treatment. Maybe it can be done. In which case I'll learn something. But until then...

Please excuse me if this is a little groggy, I'm running on low.

Yesterday I was freaking out in my composition lesson because my string quartet suddenly seemed overwhelming. I was listening to his criticism and suddenly felt like my intro theme, the BIG INTRO was not effective enough. I suggested changing it, in a moment of insecurity. His reply was (paraphrase),

"No, no, the beginning is fine. You don't have to have some amazing knockout melody to write a great piece. All the greats are known for their creativity in developing even the most simple idea into an incredible whole, not for catchy melodies. The nice melodies are fine, but that should not be your focus."

This is the best constructive criticism I've received in a long time. I mean, it's not like I didn't know that but to hear it out loud from a teacher somehow gave it great worth to me. I don't know what I'm even trying to say here. I mean, it just gave me so much inspiration, among other topics dicussed. I need to STOP FOCUSING ON NICE LITTLE PRETTY PHRASES and start manipulating my original lump of gray clay into a 1000 shapes!!

This probably seems obvious to some of you. However, I just somehow got a lot of inspiration from the whole lesson. It's like I was blocking out what I knew to be true. Also, I love Bartok right now, and I've gotten NO sleep, and this is just a mess.

EDIT: I just read this, and it sounds completely obvious somehow. I don't know how to describe what it was about the lesson that gave me so much inspiration. I apologize. It was something about the WAY he said it.[/b]

YES!! This is what i've been trying to say all the time. Thank God someone brought it to public! I am personally much more intrigued by Beethoven and his tendency to take motives and develop them FOREVER (*ADVENTURE* :wacko:) than any flowing, organic, breathing (etc etc) nocturne by chopin (for example)

*cough*, sorry. Carry on. Hehe.

:D I don't agree. I would be impressed if you solve the "awkwardness" in the melody I posted solely with harmonic treatment. Maybe it can be done. In which case I'll learn something. But until then...

There..... I think I fixed your melody. It kinda reminds me of something Shostakovich would have written. Basically... I used the rising motive you used with the "awkward" part to develop it a little further and VOILA!

I used strings as I'm completely drunk and couldn't be bothered to mess about with brass and woodwind ranges.

The point I think I was trying to get at is that anything can sound good if you anchor it right.

I think this melody sounds rather nice.

Cheers all!

There..... I think I fixed your melody. It kinda reminds me of something Shostakovich would have written. Basically... I used the rising motive you used with the "awkward" part to develop it a little further and VOILA!

I used strings as I'm completely drunk and couldn't be bothered to mess about with brass and woodwind ranges.

The point I think I was trying to get at is that anything can sound good if you anchor it right.

I think this melody sounds rather nice.

Cheers all!

Well, the original objection was to "fix" the awkwardness in the melody by harmony only. You've added some interesting harmonies, but you've also changed some note values - and you've added to the melody.

I've taken out the changed note values, the additions tacked on to the end of the melody, and retained what you've done otherwise. I still think it sounds awkward.

Can you "fix" this melody without adding to the melody itself, changing any note values, and leaving the melody retained as the upper voice - while just harmonising it below?

Here's your version without the aforementioned additions/changes.

Edit: Channel 7 is the original melody played by the piano

I wouldn't say I added to your melody... I just let it continue doing what it seemed to want to do. As for changing the note values, well I would argue that at the point the note value changes it ceases to be part of the melody as the melody has moved into another voice. The changed notes become part of the harmonic texture.

Johann had said a melody's awkwardness depends on it's handling and harmonic treatment. I was simply backing up his point with fact. The melody you wrote there certainly would be awkward with the treatment you gave it, ie. no harmonic backing and arranged as a monophonic line(It also seems cut off in the middle).

However, if handled properly and given proper harmonic context, any melody can be made to sound fine. That is to say, your monophonic line actually looks like several different lines played by one voice, so I arranged it as such.

I wouldn't say I added to your melody... I just let it continue doing what it seemed to want to do. As for changing the note values, well I would argue that at the point the note value changes it ceases to be part of the melody as the melody has moved into another voice. The changed notes become part of the harmonic texture.

Johann had said a melody's awkwardness depends on it's handling and harmonic treatment. I was simply backing up his point with fact. The melody you wrote there certainly would be awkward with the treatment you gave it, ie. no harmonic backing and arranged as a monophonic line(It also seems cut off in the middle).

However, if handled properly and given proper harmonic context, any melody can be made to sound fine. That is to say, your monophonic line actually looks like several different lines played by one voice, so I arranged it as such.

There seems to be a simple misunderstanding here. My original contention is that the melody would sound awkward whatever harmony was added to it - in rebuke to someone who said basically that any harmony could "fix" an awkward melody.

Harmonisation of a melody doesn't involve adding to the melody. It also doesn't involve changing note values of the melody. What it does involve is simply to add harmony and leave the melody alone.

What you've done is create an interesting piece of music based on what I wrote as an example. You've made it "work" - so to speak, but not according to the guidlines I was talking about. You had to go further. And that was what my whole point was.

Again, if you can "fix" this melody without adding to it, changing note values, or writing new melodies (or sustaining notes) above the one given, simply with harmony added that doesn't change the melody itself, you can claim the 'fact'.

There seems to be a simple misunderstanding here. My original contention is that the melody would sound awkward whatever harmony was added to it - in rebuke to someone who said basically that any harmony could "fix" an awkward melody.

Harmonisation of a melody doesn't involve adding to the melody. It also doesn't involve changing note values of the melody. What it does involve is simply to add harmony and leave the melody alone.

What you've done is create an interesting piece of music based on what I wrote as an example. You've made it "work" - so to speak, but not according to the guidlines I was talking about. You had to go further. And that was what my whole point was.

Again, if you can "fix" this melody without adding to it, changing note values, or writing new melodies (or sustaining notes) above the one given, simply with harmony added that doesn't change the melody itself, you can claim the 'fact'.

Misunderstanding indeed. It does take a little bit of treatment to make it work but not much. Like I said before, when I changed the note values, the melody ceased to be in that voice.

So you were basically saying that putting block chords under it won't fix it? I agree. That rarely fixes anything....

Misunderstanding indeed. It does take a little bit of treatment to make it work but not much. Like I said before, when I changed the note values, the melody ceased to be in that voice.

So you were basically saying that putting block chords under it won't fix it? I agree. That rarely fixes anything....

Then we are agreed. The melody in and of itself is awkward and cannot be "fixed" by harmonic treatment alone. "Harmonic treatment" being exactly that which is normally found in harmonising a melody - a series of underlying notes and/or chords that do not replace or alter the melody itself either by changing it's note values/durations, or relegating it to part of the accompianment.

That said Tumababa - I think your original treatment of the awkward melody does make it sound nice. Something I wouldn't have thought of.