Tonality

I'm not sure if this is already talked in another thread. This is quite basic though. My general question would be,

"How to establish a key after modulation?"

I've read some books, but it seems no thorough explanation from it. Schoenberg explained about the term of modulation as first introduction of substituted tone.Then it has to be elaborated by a cadence (re-modulation/establishment). Without a cadence, the name would be an intervening region or secondary chords of initial key, in other word, a "modulation!"

But, here it is the problem. The tonic major is easier to get slip in the region of subdominant even at first introduction of chord of modulation (e.g, C to F). At least, that's what I heard compared to another close related key, the G. The subdominant is established by itself without so much effort, even is easier to establish a D major directly through its dominant than to establish a G major. Please correct me. So, what is this close related key all about?

Again, I'll try to elaborate some more questions:

1) In maximum, How many foreign tones can be used to make it stay in the first original key?

2) In minimum, How many foreign tones precisely should be used to make an establishment of next key in modulation?

3) Is deceptive cadence (to IV) effective to establish a key?

I hope this won't confuse. Please shed some light.

"How to establish a key after modulation?"

cadence

this

this

Thanks, but you just don't get it.

no u

I don't understand that anybody would actually have problem with establishing key centre after modulation. After changing the tonality, you simply put a strong I-IV-V cadenza and that's enough. :longface:

The more "prepared" the perfect cadence is, the better the new key is established.

If you put several pre-V chords or you prolong the V (better if it's V7), the new key will be more solid.

In Rimsky's harmony treatise there are some suggestions to establish new key areas through intermediate short modulations.

Btw, forget about the no. of alterations:

C G7 Ab7/Gb Db/F G7 C stays in C major

C (C/E) F#7 B can modulate from C to B major

no u

Whattaya knoah aboot V-I, guy?

Borrowing from a region is not the same thing as a modulation.

This is crazy.

Just tried out a Cmaj-Dmaj progression. Thought it would sound like SD-D, but it's a C tonality.

Tried a Cmaj-Bbmaj progression, still the same. The Cmaj hasn't been established before.

First chord is the king that won't give his throne down until a cadence occurs.

First chord is the king that won't give his throne down until a cadence occurs.

Beethoven's piano sonata no.1, mov.1: How many perfect cadences are there and in which keys? In which order of keys? In which places?

Hints: the mov. "is" in F minor; the score is at imslp.org.

After this, do you still think perf. cad. are so indispensable?

@Albert, That's exactly the question in the first place.

1) In maximum, How many foreign tones can be used to make it stay in the first original key? (quasi-diatonic or chromatic introduction)

2) In minimum, How many foreign tones precisely should be used to make an establishment of next key in modulation?

3) Is deceptive cadence (especially to IV) effective in establishing a key?

Why didn't anybody answer this? gosh.

It all depends. Just do what sounds good instead of counting foreign tones.

I-V-I of C could be IV-I-IV of G.

All I hear is C.

This is bullsh*t.

analyse this

scores on imslp if you're confused

Yeah. There's this thing in reality where things can seem different depending on context.

@Albert, That's exactly the question in the first place.

 

1) In maximum, How many foreign tones can be used to make it stay in the first original key? (quasi-diatonic or chromatic introduction)

 

2) In minimum, How many foreign tones precisely should be used to make an establishment of next key in modulation?

 

3) Is deceptive cadence (especially to IV) effective in establishing a key?

 

Why didn't anybody answer this? gosh.

To be honest,

1. Depends on the piece/context. Are the non-diatonic pitches used melodically or harmonically? If harmonically, how are the chords used?

2. Depends on the piece/context. In some cases, one ("ti" in the new key, generally speaking) will suffice. However, this depends on how well you're able to execute the modulation as well as the key to which you're modulating...

3. Depends on the piece/context. It could be, although it's not necessary. For reinforcing modulations, though, the cadential 6/4 is super effective. :thumbsup:

I-V-I of C could be IV-I-IV of G.

 

All I hear is C.

 

This is bullsh*t.

Again, this depends on the context. If you have tonicized C major, you will hear I - V - I in C major. If you have tonicized G major, you will hear IV - I - IV in G major. However, in the latter example I seems to be embellishing IV, so all you're supposed to hear is C - before the harmony returns to G major.

In addition, whether one has truly modulated is often quite subjective. In many cases, one person hears a passage as completely modulating to another key, while another person hears the same passage as merely pointing to or tonicizing another key, but ultimately remaining in the original key.

To be honest,

 

1. Depends on the piece/context. Are the non-diatonic pitches used melodically or harmonically? If harmonically, how are the chords used?

2. Depends on the piece/context. In some cases, one ("ti" in the new key, generally speaking) will suffice. However, this depends on how well you're able to execute the modulation as well as the key to which you're modulating...

3. Depends on the piece/context. It could be, although it's not necessary. For reinforcing modulations, though, the cadential 6/4 is super effective. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

Again, this depends on the context. If you have tonicized C major, you will hear I - V - I in C major. If you have tonicized G major, you will hear IV - I - IV in G major. However, in the latter example I seems to be embellishing IV, so all you're supposed to hear is C - before the harmony returns to G major.

 

In addition, whether one has truly modulated is often quite subjective. In many cases, one person hears a passage as completely modulating to another key, while another person hears the same passage as merely pointing to or tonicizing another key, but ultimately remaining in the original key.

Thank you.

The I-V-I is all unchallenged and haven't been established. Seems like the first chord always pull everything back, also in the case of I-IV-I.

Anyway, what do you think about this following progressions I quoted from a theory book...

1) C - Gm6/3 - A7 - Dm - G7 - F6/3 - Gm6/3 - F6/3 - G4/3 - C - F

2) C - D4/3 - G - Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3 - F#m7b5 6/3 - Em6/3 - F#m7b5 - B7 - Em

(Key of C in the beginning is supposed already established)

The author said, the G7 - F6/3 at no.1 is deceptive cadence (II7 - I) in F key. The Dm that preceded it is already in the key of F, accordingly it's established in the mean of iv-V-i. While at no.2, with a same cadence Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3 is only an intermediary key or not modulating at all.

I will not fall for this one again... Green, you have already annoyed me a couple of months ago. So you better stop teasing others.

To establish a tonality: I-V-I or I-IV-I is not enough. I-V7-I is much better, or full cadenza I-IV-V-I.

I will not fall for this one again... Green, you have already annoyed me a couple of months ago. So you better stop teasing others.

To establish a tonality: I-V-I or I-IV-I is not enough. I-V7-I is much better, or full cadenza I-IV-V-I.

(Key of C in the beginning is supposed already established)

1) C - Gm6/3 - A7 - Dm - G7 - F6/3 - Gm6/3 - F6/3 - G4/3 - C - F

2) C - D4/3 - G - Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3 - F#m7b5 6/3 - Em6/3 - F#m7b5 - B7 - Em

The author said, the G7 - F6/3 at no.1 is deceptive cadence (II7 - I) in F key. The Dm that preceded it is already in the key of F, accordingly it's established in the mean of iv-V-i. While at no.2, with a same cadence Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3 is only an intermediary key or not modulating at all.

Don't you get it?

Dude, stop teasing us (as Sojar Voglar said) and analize the stuff we're recommended, because that's how you're gonna learn.

imslp.org and youtube are your actual sources of knowledge.

@Albert, That's exactly the question in the first place.

 

1)

In maximum, How many foreign tones can be used to make it stay in the

first original key? (quasi-diatonic or chromatic introduction)

 

2) In minimum, How many foreign tones precisely should be used to make an establishment of next key in modulation?

 

3) Is deceptive cadence (especially to IV) effective in establishing a key?

 

Why didn't anybody answer this? gosh.

1) All of them:

2) None of them:

3) A deceptive cadence isn't actually a cadence (in the same way a false recapitulation isn't actually a recapitulation), and establishes nothing, though it can use the second chord as a pivot:

(Key of C in the beginning is supposed already established)

 

1) C - Gm6/3 - A7 - Dm - G7 - F6/3 - Gm6/3 - F6/3 - G4/3 - C - F

2) C - D4/3 - G - Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3 - F#m7b5 6/3 - Em6/3 - F#m7b5 - B7 - Em

 

The author said, the G7 - F6/3 at no.1 is deceptive cadence (II7 - I) in F key. The Dm that preceded it is already in the key of F, accordingly it's established in the mean of iv-V-i. While at no.2, with a same cadence Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3 is only an intermediary key or not modulating at all.

 

Don't you get it?

1) The deceptive cadence, 'G7 – F6/3', isn't analysed as 'II7 – I' in F, it's 'V7 – VI6–' in C. The second chord, by the way, isn't said to be functioning as a first inversion subdominant; it is a submediant with a suspended or substituted tone—what you call it depends on how it resolves—since it's functioning as a tonic substitute, and not a predominant harmony; this sort of thing can happen whenever the bass expresses the function strongly, and the fifth above isn't essential to conveying this function; in this case, the scale degree 5 to scale degree 6 move in the bass expressing a deceptive cadence.

2) The progression modulates through the Am region, after the first G major chord, to Em (the progression of the first three chords is on a C–G spectrum, since they're contrapuntal). If you're calling 'Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3' a deceptive cadence because the Am isn't in root position, it isn't the same as the deceptive cadence in no. 1 (usually, people call the one in no. 2 an evaded cadence, instead).

1) All of them:

 

 

2) None of them:

 

 

 

3) A deceptive cadence isn't actually a cadence (in the same way a false recapitulation isn't actually a recapitulation), and establishes nothing, though it can use the second chord as a pivot:

 

 

 

 

1) The deceptive cadence, 'G7 – F6/3', isn't analysed as 'II7 – I' in F, it's 'V7 – VI6–' in C. The second chord, by the way, isn't said to be functioning as a first inversion subdominant; it is a submediant with a suspended or substituted tone—what you call it depends on how it resolves—since it's functioning as a tonic substitute, and not a predominant harmony; this sort of thing can happen whenever the bass expresses the function strongly, and the fifth above isn't essential to conveying this function; in this case, the scale degree 5 to scale degree 6 move in the bass expressing a deceptive cadence.

 

2) The progression modulates through the Am region, after the first G major chord, to Em (the progression of the first three chords is on a C–G spectrum, since they're contrapuntal). If you're calling 'Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3' a deceptive cadence because the Am isn't in root position, it isn't the same as the deceptive cadence in no. 1 (usually, people call the one in no. 2 an evaded cadence, instead).

This seems to be a sufficient amount of information. Good luck with your understanding of theory.

1) All of them:

 

 

2) None of them:

 

 

 

3) A deceptive cadence isn't actually a cadence (in the same way a false recapitulation isn't actually a recapitulation), and establishes nothing, though it can use the second chord as a pivot:

 

 

 

 

1) The deceptive cadence, 'G7 – F6/3', isn't analysed as 'II7 – I' in F, it's 'V7 – VI6–' in C. The second chord, by the way, isn't said to be functioning as a first inversion subdominant; it is a submediant with a suspended or substituted tone—what you call it depends on how it resolves—since it's functioning as a tonic substitute, and not a predominant harmony; this sort of thing can happen whenever the bass expresses the function strongly, and the fifth above isn't essential to conveying this function; in this case, the scale degree 5 to scale degree 6 move in the bass expressing a deceptive cadence.

 

2) The progression modulates through the Am region, after the first G major chord, to Em (the progression of the first three chords is on a C–G spectrum, since they're contrapuntal). If you're calling 'Dm6/3 - E - Am6/3' a deceptive cadence because the Am isn't in root position, it isn't the same as the deceptive cadence in no. 1 (usually, people call the one in no. 2 an evaded cadence, instead).

This is a great piece of information for a beginner like me. Thanks in a million, Wayne. Yet I do have questions regarding this.

Do you mind if I message you? just want to make it direct.

Thanks again.

Yeah, fine.

***

I'm not sure if this is already talked in another thread. This is quite basic though. My general question would be,

"How to establish a key after modulation?"
***

Another thread,  on Pluto, perhaps, where rocket science meets music. Green, Why would you consult Shoenberg if you're interest is in modulation - a tonal concept? People here have suggested many good ideas regarding V-1 cadences, which, when transposed, will eventually establish a new key.