Beginner Daw Questions

Let me give you some quick background info first:  

I've been composing for about 10 years, the last 4 or 5 very seriously.  I'm very familiar with both Finale and Sibelius, as far as notation programs, I've got no issues.

The last several years I have worked doing live audio in several auditoriums.  I have a make shift home recording studio with a 24 track multi-track recorder and a fairly large arsenal of quality recording gear that I use to record my works.  As far as live sound engineering, I've got no major issues.

But then it comes to these DAW things, and I haven't got a clue!  I feel like a composer should have a decent grasp on all three of these categories, and I'm really lacking here.

So here are my questions: 

1.  I'm interested in Apple's Logic Pro X.  I know it's pretty new, but I've heard very good things about it.  Can anyone explain to me what a program like this would actually do for someone like me?

2.  VST/Sound Libraries...  I have a general idea of them.  How do I actually use them?  How much would it cost to have enough to make a decent orchestral mock up.

3.  I know these sound libraries are accessed through this Kontakt Player (or something like that).  Something like this comes with Finale/Sibelius and I have it on my computer.  I have no idea how to actually do anything with it!  If I were to buy Logic Pro X, will this kontakt player work with it, or is that something else I'd need to buy?

4.  Do I even need something like Logic Pro X?  (I'm just curious for opinions here)

Thanks for any help, and sorry if these questions on mind-numbingly basic.

If you'll allow me I'm going to rearrange your questions a bit:

1.  I'm interested in Apple's Logic Pro X.  I know it's pretty new, but I've heard very good things about it.  Can anyone explain to me what a program like this would actually do for someone like me?

A DAW (digital audio workstation) is used as a program to create, record, rearrange, and/or otherwise do whatever you want to do with audio. It is akin to a movie editor like Adobe Premiere for video or Photoshop for photos. The problem with audio is there's at least two elements: creation and production. In creation we have to deal with making the notes and/or sounds that are the building blocks to a musical performance. In composition this is the score. Then, we have to take these notes and turn them into a musical performance on the computer. This is where DAWs, specifically sequencers come into play. Sequencers use MIDI data routed through various interfaces and/or software to produce a sound which is then recorded and processed with reverb, mixing, or what-have-you. 

As for Logic Pro I have no idea because I've never used it (but I like to shy away from anything Apple does lately). I've used Digital Performer primarily and it is very good for sequencing and adequate for sound editing. It is far more suited to composition than recording; Pro Tools would probably be better at recording. 

4.  Do I even need something like Logic Pro X?  (I'm just curious for opinions here)

Yes, if your intention is to make audio files that are anything worth sharing with the world. 

2.  VST/Sound Libraries...  I have a general idea of them.  How do I actually use them?  How much would it cost to have enough to make a decent orchestral mock up.

AND

3.  I know these sound libraries are accessed through this Kontakt Player (or something like that).  Something like this comes with Finale/Sibelius and I have it on my computer.  I have no idea how to actually do anything with it!  If I were to buy Logic Pro X, will this kontakt player work with it, or is that something else I'd need to buy?

A VST (virtual studio technology) is just a fancy name for software synths. A VST is a program that works in conjunction with your DAW to produce sound. With Garritan (like the included things with Finale) the VST is Kontakt. For EWQL it is "Play". Other types use other software but Kontakt is the big one because it tends to just work. A sound library is basically just a collection of a bajillion audio files that are linked together by the VST to follow the instruction sent from the DAW, often MIDI data. Ultimately, all these pieces of software work together so that if you play or record a note or chord in the DAW, that note will play back with the new sounds. What's great about libraries is they offer a great amount of flexibility with little-to-no extra hardware except disk space. Libraries are bought as sets and installed just like any software but they are non-functional without the VST. 

As for orchestral mockups, it depends on how realistic you're willing to go and how much time you want to spend on them. EWQL's Symphonic Orchestra is pretty darned good and comes in around $1,000. It does some things fantastically (like big action cues or heavy articulations on strings) but others not so good (expression in general is a bit flat and often requires a large amount of coaxing). If you start mixing and matching libraries (such has using the Brass from Symphonic Orchestra but the Strings from LA Strings or the Woodwinds from Vienna Symphonic Library, you can end up spending a crapload of money just on the samples alone. But the more versatility you have, the more longevity of your setup. 

First, don't apologize for asking basic questions at a site where the majority of composers here are in their late-teens/early twenties. I'm sure if you rummage around you'll find plenty of wildly inappropriate behavior confirming my statement. 

I'm curious to know your purpose with a sequencer. If sound quality is something absolutely important to you, I recommend getting the best computer available first. Check the forums for the different manufacturers to get more detailed info about the specs you would need. I say this because getting great equipment and software is wonderful in aiding your creative output, but useless if your computer can't run them properly.

Scour the history here as well. I've been to this site off and on for 6 or so years now, and I've seen this question posted multiple times. I'm sure there are more answers buried here. 

Good luck to you, and happy composing :)

You mention mock-ups. Are you writing for film? If so, or in any case, Digital Performer would be a good choice for reasons I won't get into here because of space. But if you're only accustomed to notation programs, then it doesn't matter what DAW you use. You will have the same issues regardless. Notation programs are good for presenting readable music for humans, while DAW's and MIDI sequencers are good for getting a computer to "perform" your work in the best possible way. Tokkemon is correct - you have the ability-and the need- to tweak your MIDI events to a fine degree.

On another forum I posed the question, what DAW configuration can I get for $5,000? (the sale price of my piano)

The advice was great and I came in at around $4,000 for a Mac Pro, a MOTU sound card, 5 EWQL sample libraries, MOTU's Machfive (a swiss army knife of virtual synthesizers), Digital Performer and Sibelius 7. Altogether 2TB of samples. I also have (had) a studio, and what filled a room now fills a box! Here's an example of a film score that could be used as the final product with this configuration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ECVOK3OV_M

After reading your replies as well as searching around the forums a bit, I'm starting to think all this stuff is not worth the investment for me at this stage in my career.  The reason I'm interested in high-quality mock ups is to help promote my work in order to get performances.  The sounds from Sibelius can often be so bad it actually takes away from the sophistication of the music.  However, I feel it's more in my interest to expand my network of potential performers who actually know my music, rather than focusing on making a computer make my music sound decent.  I just can't imagine that I'd be able to earn an equal return on my investment in a reasonable amount of time based solely on having higher quality mock ups of my work.  I could use two to three thousand dollars in much more practical ways (web design, marketing, publishing materials, ect.) and earn that money back in a much shorter amount of time.

If composing was just a hobby, and I had the money to spend, I think I would dive into this.  But composing is a passion that I'm trying to build a career around, and from the business side of things I just don't see it being worth the investment.  Any one care to try to convince me otherwise?

Thanks!

If composing was just a hobby, and I had the money to spend, I think I
would dive into this.  But composing is a passion that I'm trying to
build a career around, and from the business side of things I just don't
see it being worth the investment.  Any one care to try to convince me
otherwise?

DJ, I don't really understand your logic with regard to technology. but good luck to you in any case.

DJ, I don't really understand your logic with regard to technology. but good luck to you in any case.

My logic comes from a money stand point.  My large ensemble pieces sell for about $50, my chamber works about $30, my profit margins are approximately 50%.  Currently I have a fairly small network, maybe 10 to 20 teachers and performers and two music stores in Arizona.  On average, I would have to sell 125 units just to break even on a $2,500 investment of VSTs and sound libraries.  In the three years that I've been selling my music, I've earned probably $600 (like I said, I'm still pretty new to this).  At this rate, without expanding my network, it's going to take upwards of 12 years to make that money back!

Now here's where I have to question the future:  All this technology will do is make my midi-mock-ups sound less fake, most of what I promote I use live recordings (better than fake-midi-mock-ups anyway).  Will having better sounding files of non-recorded music really help all that much in the grand scheme of things given my small network?  I think not.

What if I invest $2,500 into promoting my work more professionally online?  Right now, you can't find me on google unless you know me, that's not very helpful when trying to get your name out there.  What if I invest $2,500 into more efficient copying and publishing equipment, boosting my profit margins up 30%?  What if I invest $2,500 into traveling to national conventions to promote my work personally to performers across the country?  Can I break even in less than 12 years?  Yes, I'm pretty confident I can.

My logic comes from a money stand point.  My large ensemble pieces sell for about $50, my chamber works about $30, my profit margins are approximately 50%.  Currently I have a fairly small network, maybe 10 to 20 teachers and performers and two music stores in Arizona.  On average, I would have to sell 125 units just to break even on a $2,500 investment of VSTs and sound libraries.  In the three years that I've been selling my music, I've earned probably $600 (like I said, I'm still pretty new to this).  At this rate, without expanding my network, it's going to take upwards of 12 years to make that money back!

 

Now here's where I have to question the future:  All this technology will do is make my midi-mock-ups sound less fake, most of what I promote I use live recordings (better than fake-midi-mock-ups anyway).  Will having better sounding files of non-recorded music really help all that much in the grand scheme of things given my small network?  I think not.

 

What if I invest $2,500 into promoting my work more professionally online?  Right now, you can't find me on google unless you know me, that's not very helpful when trying to get your name out there.  What if I invest $2,500 into more efficient copying and publishing equipment, boosting my profit margins up 30%?  What if I invest $2,500 into traveling to national conventions to promote my work personally to performers across the country?  Can I break even in less than 12 years?  Yes, I'm pretty confident I can.

You've got it backwards. Since you're looking to promote yourself and achieve performances, the real value in a DAW would not be in creating demos, but in mastering your recordings. Generally, if you tell someone a demo is a demo, they will forgive the fact that it is not fine tuned. I never spend much time on the sibelius mock ups, but I'll spend weeks and months agonizing over editing the recordings of performances.

I like Pro tools, and it works pretty seamlessly with Sibelius since they're both AVID products.

U238,

Can you expand on the seamlessness between PT and Sibelius?

In my experience, using Digital Performer and Sibelius, they are anything but. Apples and oranges, really. String example: You've got a tweaked out Daw that sounds great in terms of note-ons and offs relative to their articulations. Then it must be heavily quantized prior to MIDI export. Once in Sibelius you've got 10-15 string articulations, each on a separate track/staff, that must be consolidated into a conventional string section. This is all manual labor. And I would rather stick needles in my eyes than use embedded key switching. :pinch:

*** to the OP's question: Another value of a DAW is to aid in composing music. You get immediate playback of ideas. How valuable is that? Will you always have a group of players at your fingertips? Tireless? Always in a good mood? In the middle of the night when you have an idea? And if it comes down to money, find a way to get it! The technology is not going away and you do yourself a disservice by letting slip by. Dude, I wouldn't steer you wrong.

You've got it backwards. Since you're looking to promote yourself and achieve performances, the real value in a DAW would not be in creating demos, but in mastering your recordings. Generally, if you tell someone a demo is a demo, they will forgive the fact that it is not fine tuned. I never spend much time on the sibelius mock ups, but I'll spend weeks and months agonizing over editing the recordings of performances.

 

I like Pro tools, and it works pretty seamlessly with Sibelius since they're both AVID products.

This makes a lot of sense, to use a DAW more for finishing rather than creating.  I too am curious what you mean by it working seamlessly with Sibelius.  If I use Sibelius for creating before the performance, then Pro Tools for editing after the performance, I don't see how any work would overlap between the two programs.  After I've printed my score and parts, I'm pretty much through with Sibelius unless I go back and make major changes.

*** to the OP's question: Another value of a DAW is to aid in composing music. You get immediate playback of ideas. How valuable is that? Will you always have a group of players at your fingertips? Tireless? Always in a good mood? In the middle of the night when you have an idea? And if it comes down to money, find a way to get it! The technology is not going away and you do yourself a disservice by letting slip by. Dude, I wouldn't steer you wrong.

This however, I don't think is very valuable to me personally.  I have a fairly strong inner ear and know what my music will sound like from looking at it, I rarely use even the playback on Sibelius while I'm working.  To be honest, even with thousands of dollars in high quality samples, I would not trust a computer playback with the finer aspects of orchestration, balance, and texture.  These are things that only studying scores and live recordings can give you.

This however, I don't think is very valuable to me personally.  I have a fairly strong inner ear and know what my music will sound like from looking at it, I rarely use even the playback on Sibelius while I'm working.  To be honest, even with thousands of dollars in high quality samples, I would not trust a computer playback with the finer aspects of orchestration, balance, and texture.  These are things that only studying scores and live recordings can give you.

But you knew all these things before posting. So why post? Why ask about DAW tools, pleading ignorance, and their methodologies and benefits when your sophisticated ear trumps all else? Why waste everyone's time?

But you knew all these things before posting. So why post? Why ask about DAW tools, pleading ignorance, and their methodologies and benefits when your sophisticated ear trumps all else? Why waste everyone's time?

That's exactly why I'm asking "Do I really need one?"

Because of many responses I think I've discovered, from a creative process perspective, I don't need it.  So thank you, you've helped me answer this question.

It also brought up another possibility in mastering recordings.  To be honest, I didn't think of this before.  This is definitely something I'm looking into now.  So again, for this advice, thank you!

I don't believe I'm "wasting everyone's time".  Just because you didn't convince me to buy a DAW and sample libraries, doesn't mean you wasted time.  Your insight reaffirmed my doubt of actually needing one, in turn potentially saving me several thousand dollars.  So definitely THANK YOU for that!

This makes a lot of sense, to use a DAW more for finishing rather than creating.  I too am curious what you mean by it working seamlessly with Sibelius.  If I use Sibelius for creating before the performance, then Pro Tools for editing after the performance, I don't see how any work would overlap between the two programs.  After I've printed my score and parts, I'm pretty much through with Sibelius unless I go back and make major changes.

If I remember correctly, you don't need to export to a midi to open a sibelius file in protools, you can import the sibelius file directly and I believe there is a way to go back and forth. I.E. I seem to remember there being a "view in sibelius" option. If you create a midi file in protools you can also have it translated into a score instantly.

Now, I don't have protools or sibelius in front of me, so I'm just trying to remember from the last time I used them. I've never used that functionality a lot, when I'm in protools I'm messing with audio files not midi files.

But you knew all these things before posting. So why post? Why ask about DAW tools, pleading ignorance, and their methodologies and benefits when your sophisticated ear trumps all else? Why waste everyone's time?

That escalated quickly.

That escalated quickly.

I saw that! Brick killed a guy! Did you throw a trident?

A man travels to Paris. He asks Pierre to prove to him why he needs to know French. Pierre tells him "Il n'est pas nécessaire, mais utile." The man says I will stick with English. :hmmm: 

A man travels to Paris. He asks Pierre to prove to him why he needs to know French. Pierre tells him "Il n'est pas nécessaire, mais utile." The man says I will stick with English. :hmmm:

Quel est utile pour un, peut ne pas être utile à l'autre.

Your getting alittle ahead of yourself

The amount of time and money it takes to get a live recording from a orchestra will be alot more than a those sound libraries. Unless your really lucky or kiss the alot of conductors' arse(or you are one) your stuff will never be played.

If you have to have live performances. Just stick to chamber music and work your way up in till you have enough money to pay for it. Promotion dont mean sh** money and credibility is all that matters.

Your getting alittle ahead of yourself

 

The amount of time and money it takes to get a live recording from a orchestra will be alot more than a those sound libraries. Unless your really lucky or kiss the alot of conductors' arse(or you are one) your stuff will never be played.

 

If you have to have live performances. Just stick to chamber music and work your way up in till you have enough money to pay for it. Promotion dont mean sh** money and credibility is all that matters.

I've never heard of a composer paying to have his piece played...  Just like I've never heard of a sandwich maker paying someone to eat his sandwich...

Yes and that sandwich maker have to pay for the ingredients to make them. Of course If you jump through alot of hoops you can probably get your pieces played once and then they will move on to mozart/beethoven or whatever. The problem about this method is that general public hardly ever goes to concerts anymore. So in order make any real money you're going to need recordings, which will cost.

I'll put this out here for DJ: Get a friend or colleague to demo their DAW's for you. If not possible, put an ad in Craigslist (if you're American. If not, I don't know.) But make an ad soliciting demos from anyone who is willing to let you pick their brain. And throw them a couple of bucks. If they are like me they will be happy to talk about music production and the tricks they have discovered. It seems to me that you are looking for a little nudge in the direction of a new paradigm that at first may seem uncomfortable. Plus you will get more in one hour, one-on-one, than you will all day here.

Yes and that sandwich maker have to pay for the ingredients to make them. Of course If you jump through alot of hoops you can probably get your pieces played once and then they will move on to mozart/beethoven or whatever. The problem about this method is that general public hardly ever goes to concerts anymore. So in order make any real money you're going to need recordings, which will cost.

You're right, the general public hardly ever goes to concerts anymore.  What percentage of the general public do you think would actually buy classical albums?  I'd argue that 1% of the general public goes to concerts, and that 1% of that audience would actually buy an album.

I'm not trying to market my music for mass audiences to buy, I'm trying to market my music to community orchestras, high school band and orchestra directors, private studio teachers and college professors.

Ask someone like John Macky or Eric Ewazen, you think they make their money from selling CDs?

You're right, the general public hardly ever goes to concerts anymore.  What percentage of the general public do you think would actually buy classical albums?  I'd argue that 1% of the general public goes to concerts, and that 1% of that audience would actually buy an album.

 

I'm not trying to market my music for mass audiences to buy, I'm trying to market my music to community orchestras, high school band and orchestra directors, private studio teachers and college professors.

 

Ask someone like John Macky or Eric Ewazen, you think they make their money from selling CDs?

If you agree that you wont make much money from concerts I cant understand why would you continue to market your stuff to concert directors.

While im not against what you're a doing, It is certainly not the best way.  I think its more logical to spend a couple of thousand on software than to go through economic and social politics. but whatever floats your boat go right ahead.

Both of those composers you mentioned have day jobs. (yes I consider teaching a day job)

If you agree that you wont make much money from concerts I cant understand why would you continue to market your stuff to concert directors.

 

While im not against what you're a doing, It is certainly not the best way.  I think its more logical to spend a couple of thousand on software than to go through economic and social politics. but whatever floats your boat go right ahead.

 

Both of those composers you mentioned have day jobs. (yes I consider teaching a day job)

You can't understand promoting your music for anything other than financial gain?

You think that creating fake recordings is a better way than encouraging live performance?

You sound like a hell of an artist.