Green Posted October 22, 2013 Posted October 22, 2013 Maybe it seems trivial to you. But it somehow is still confusing to me, as in this progression... Dm - G - C7 - F7 - G - C I used to think that C7 is secondary dominant of IV, but then F7 is a borrowed chord which retains its function. How do you perceive chromaticism in its very nature? the tones beside the structural 1 3 5 are only addition to these fundamental, but how does it effects the function as it then for instance becomes secondary dominant? I use a textbook that is telling me to look sec.dom as an embellishment, not genuinely belong to whole context of functional progression. But then moreover, how do you explain the functional chords on blues progression? Does it the tonic looks like a secondary dominant to you? Quote
Ken320 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 That's a weird progression. What's with the F7? To be a secondary dominant, it's function is then to resolve up a fourth, so it seems quite out of place. That aside, here's how I look at it, from a jazz context. In jazz, any triad can, (and should) be made a 7th. So take ii-V-1. The ii is minor so make it a minor seventh. Another rule is any chord whose next chord is up a fourth can become a dominant 7th. So, V-V, V, 1, taking the ii chord out of the key, which the book says correctly that it is an embellishment, but it is also a properly defined secondary dominant. When it comes to 7th chords and their "functions," notice their relation to the third. If the third is major AND the 7th is flat, it's dominant. If the third is major and the 7th is natural, THAT is a major 7th chord with no dominant function whatsoever. Just there for color. If the third is minor, as in your ii chord AND the 7th is minor, then that 7th is for color. Whether or not the third in the ii chord is minor or major, they both move naturally up a fourth. In common practice, once you "dominant-ize" a chord, it REALLY REALLY wants to go up a fourth. That's why the F7 is weird. The 1-IV-V blues thing is a stylized use of 7th chords. I never thought of them as secondary dominants, but I guess you could. Quote
Ken320 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 I also want to add that given the above, adding 9ths and and up does not change the dominant-non dominant function of the chord. It all depends on the third and 7th. That's vibe players can play complex chords with only four notes, because they can eliminate the root, the fifth, etc., as long as they play the third and 7th. Quote
Kvothe Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Here is my thoughts: 1) starting on II alludes on we creating a dorian progression, thus we need establish that. By removing the tonal ending and emp. the modal character of the progression. 2) Yes, C7 is the Secondary V of IV. But back to point one. SInce we starting on II, we either to need deciced at this point. that we what to create a modal progession on II or tonal one on I. 3) Considering what i said in 1 and 2, we can keep II and V chords in dorian-modal progessions. V acts as the Domiant in II acts I! Since we want to add chromaticism, rethink secondary fucntions in this context, with modal chords as well...and 7 and 9. Note: there is a raised 6th in dorain. Quote
Ken320 Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Where is Mr. Green? Is it C major or D Dorian? He ended on C so I'm guessing C major 1 Quote
Kvothe Posted November 9, 2013 Posted November 9, 2013 Where is Mr. Green? Is it C major or D Dorian? He ended on C so I'm guessing C major Yea, My suggestions implied it could be both. Nevertheless, Harmonic progression either modally or tonally should start on end the the same chord. Quote
neptune1bond Posted November 10, 2013 Posted November 10, 2013 The question is whether or not he intended FM7 and just put F7 as a figured bass-type symbol without realizing the confusion that might be caused. If not, then the chord could simply be an occurance of passing tones. An incidental or embellishing-type chord. (F moves up by step, A, C, and Eb move down and voila! G major chord with the Eb as a chromatic passing tone from the E from the previous C dominant chord. Even though the C7 seems to point to the F as a functioning chord, the voice leading could derail our expectations and therefor make the movement to G viable.) 1 Quote
Ken320 Posted November 10, 2013 Posted November 10, 2013 Fm7 makes sense as a minor IV chord. F7 sounds about as wrong as wrong can be. Quote
Green Posted November 16, 2013 Author Posted November 16, 2013 I don't have this thread notified or followed. Sorry for not being responsive. From the beginning I intend to write a tonal progression, Wherever it starts it's always back to its tonic with a cadence. That's what tonal music is, Isn't it? After browsing and have some reading for awhile, now I recognize those two chromatic chords are secondary dominant with irregular resolution. If you familiar with "I got rhythm" - a tune written by Gershwin, that's the irregular resolution all about. Some say it's a dominant chain. Thus it would make the chords become non functional. Concluding this, we only have non-enclosed chords as the genuine one while the others as embellishment. Dm - G - (C7 - F7) - G - C. I'm looking for more thought if you find this not justifiable. Thanks for replying. Quote
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