"keeping On Topic" .. How To Stop "rambling?"

Wooaahh... long time, no see.

It's been... several years since I've been here. If I may reminisce for a second.. I joined YC when I was 13 and looked up to the 20 year olds as the "cool" guys.. Is Robin Jessome still around? :D

Welp now I'm 21 and have been feeling rather inspired lately. I spent a few years on and off writing electronic music and DJing my first two years of college, but I grew up with classical music and I want to get back to my roots.

I listened to my older stuff from back in the good ole' days of yore and noticed a common trend (even with my more current edm works). Rambling. I start with a pretty decent subject, maybe even a nice introduction in general, and after that it's just idea after idea after idea. "Hey here's something that sounds cool! Okay that's done, here's 4 bars aaaannndd.... something totally different that sounds cool!"

When you listen to the greats, they never quite sound like they're rambling even if they don't have the subject anywhere in a given few measures.

Besides the typical "just practice," do you have any advice as to how to stop rambling?

Thanks! To all (if any) old people (ca. 2007), hey! How've you been? And to the new folks, nice to meet you! 

Its very tricky indeed, but mostly its about structure and knowing the right places for the introduction of new themes, repetition and imitation.
Having a solid harmonic structure also helps. For example, in sonata form, the two theme groups of the exposition don't seem 'rambling' by design.

There are all kinds of techniques used to help distinguish main themes from subsequent bars and codas.
The main theme is often particularly 'catchy', lively or lyrical with a rounded set of phrases.
I like to use more counterpoint in intermediary sections and lots of imitation.
In codas and end of sections, you've got the I-V-I-V.... harmonics, with new material and noticeably different rhythms.


If the piece has distinctive and varied sections, arranged into an effective structure, then it shouldn't sound rambling

That's how I see it, anyway. 
 

There's actually nothing wrong with having a piece be a succession of unrelated ideas—sometimes no transitions are needed whatsoever. If you don't mind listening to some seriously avant-garde music for a quarter of an hour, try this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghjhk6Es6D8

However to pull this kind of thing off it's often helpful to have a common thread that occasionally resurfaces (like the "Promenade" from Pictures at an Exhibition) or to base the ideas on similar melodic shapes. An overall key scheme can be helpful, but is not strictly necessary.

I think "not rambling" involves striking a balance between continuity and contrast. What that means in practice depends on the particular circumstance and also personal taste. Also involved, I think, is a vague idea which I'd term 'information density', involving the novelty or 'entropy' of material compared with length of time, or complexity of notation, or number of parts, etc. You want to keep this relatively high.

i think the basis of music is rhythm, so not rambling means having a rhythm logic to the piece. keeping the rhythm accents is ingenious, making "pre-choruses" is ..all i can ask for

If you don't mind listening to some seriously avant-garde music for a quarter of an hour, try this out:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghjhk6Es6D8

 

You would call that avant garde? :P I'll be playing

But thanks for the words of advice. I suppose there isn't much wrong with it in that context, but I suppose I don't really want to sound rambling in other contexts!

I think "not rambling" involves striking a balance between continuity and contrast.

That makes a lot of sense. I think my issue may be then that I either start contrasting too much or I stay too on topic. In my most recent work, a piece for full band, I think I did a better job of contrasting the two by more elaborating on the theme/adding some variations to it rather than veering off the theme entirely.

If you don't mind listening to some seriously avant-garde music for a quarter of an hour, try this out:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghjhk6Es6D8

 

 

Schumann's too modern for my tastes.

For a masterclass on how to continually introduce new material without rambling, I'd recommend listening to some Stravinsky: especially Petrushka, Rite of Spring and Pulcinella. All three are great examples of how to effectively move seamlessly between seemingly unrelated ideas. When you look closely at the scores, you realise that the material you just heard that sounds as though it came out of nowhere has actually been carefully building momentum in the background for some time.

Incidentally, all three of these pieces are ballets, meaning that the structure is dictated by the drama to a certain extent. Maybe it would be useful to look at the structure of some of your favourite movies, plays, musicals, operas etc. and see if there are any structural aspects that would translate well to your music? 

I think "not rambling" involves striking a balance between continuity and contrast. What that means in practice depends on the particular circumstance and also personal taste. Also involved, I think, is a vague idea which I'd term 'information density', involving the novelty or 'entropy' of material compared with length of time, or complexity of notation, or number of parts, etc. You want to keep this relatively high.

http://www.dolmetsch.com/form.pdf

I recommend giving it a look over. Its a short read. It's sure helped me stay on track in terms of form. If you think about your music in terms of what the listener is hearing, remembering, and expecting, you'll have a lot easier time writing engaging music.

I listened to my older stuff from back in the good ole' days of yore and noticed a common trend (even with my more current edm works). Rambling. I start with a pretty decent subject, maybe even a nice introduction in general, and after that it's just idea after idea after idea. "Hey here's something that sounds cool! Okay that's done, here's 4 bars aaaannndd.... something totally different that sounds cool!"

 

When you listen to the greats, they never quite sound like they're rambling even if they don't have the subject anywhere in a given few measures.

 

Besides the typical "just practice," do you have any advice as to how to stop rambling?

I think it's always a problem for young people to be able to reign in their ideas and keep them under control. Ideas are cheap, so what you do with them is what actually counts. That's why conservation of material is one of the first things I try to teach my students, specially trying to avoid coming up with new stuff and instead work on what's already there.

It helps tremendously if you try to write stuff with strict style guidelines, like fugues or sonatas, where you are supposed to be limited in what material you can use or where you can draw things from. In a sonata for example, the sonata form (Beethoven onwards) draws the majority of its material from the exposition and then works with it during the development area.

But any self-imposed rules on material restrictions is a good thing to do and practice. Anything that keeps your ideas in check and forces you to elaborate on what you already have down on paper. A more extreme example would be write a piece that must last 4 minutes with only 5 notes and 2 rhythm figures... stuff like that. Small little exercises but they help.