Classical Music: Why Bother?

No, it's not OK, and it doesn't matter whether they become historic composers or not.

What matters is that they have power and influence over people who might become historic composers or "real world" musicians. They brainwash people with drivel like this; if you hear enough of this crap in 4 to 8 years of college, you'll begin to believe it yourself, and many of my degreed colleagues do. They have jobs in the "real world" of music, and they judge everything by the same standards they learnt in college. It's absolutely vicious.

The directors I work with all display this kind of attitude, even though half of them are composers themselves. They've all turned their noses up at everything I've ever set in front of them. The only exception in my entire experience is the director of the San Fernando Valley Symphony, and I consider myself damned lucky. The only works I've ever had performed live in my adult career either he produced or I put on myself.

I know my stuff doesn't suck. But because I didn't go around eating the donkey of every professor I came in contact with, and because I didn't buy the sack of scraggy they had to sell, I'm nothing in the eyes of academics and professionals.

It's completely ridiculous, and I'm not the only one this happens to.

No, it's not OK, and it doesn't matter whether they become historic composers or not.

What matters is that they have power and influence over people who might become historic composers or "real world" musicians. They brainwash people with drivel like this; if you hear enough of this crap in 4 to 8 years of college, you'll begin to believe it yourself, and many of my degreed colleagues do. They have jobs in the "real world" of music, and they judge everything by the same standards they learnt in college. It's absolutely vicious.

The directors I work with all display this kind of attitude, even though half of them are composers themselves. They've all turned their noses up at everything I've ever set in front of them. The only exception in my entire experience is the director of the San Fernando Valley Symphony, and I consider myself damned lucky. The only works I've ever had performed live in my adult career either he produced or I put on myself.

I know my stuff doesn't suck. But because I didn't go around eating the donkey of every professor I came in contact with, and because I didn't buy the sack of scraggy they had to sell, I'm nothing in the eyes of academics and professionals.

It's completely ridiculous, and I'm not the only one this happens to.

*sigh*

I had no idea that this is what the budding classisist is up against.

I'm curious - the directors you mention - what kind of music do they typically compose, and in your opinion, is it received well by audiences, have wit, enjoyable etc?

Personally I think the vast majority of really good, new music isn't being created in the art-music world anymore---most of it is in Jazz, Rock, Metal, etc. I think some of the Jazz, Rock, and Metal artists of the 20th century will eventually be remembered with as great immortality as we now remember the great composers of the past. I'm not supposed to have that opinion, am I? =)

lol actually I agree, I think these areas are expanding into new horizons while classical music is becoming increasingly traditional, I dunno but this is not the case with everything, alot of new stuff is out their in classical, except its rarely noticed.

I'm curious - the directors you mention - what kind of music do they typically compose, and in your opinion, is it received well by audiences, have wit, enjoyable etc?

They mostly compose tonal music using modern techniques, and it is usually received quite well by audiences. Two of them in particular - including my church choir director - I have nothing but respect and esteem for.

But I am somehow not a member of the club.

Heh, too bad for them... publicly trashing tonal music is kinda burning your bridges!

That's what I'm saying.... trashing ANY music is burning your bridges.

They mostly compose tonal music using modern techniques, and it is usually received quite well by audiences. Two of them in particular - including my church choir director - I have nothing but respect and esteem for.

But I am somehow not a member of the club.

I'm curious.... From what I've heard, you're a really good composer. Have you ever composed anything using

modern techniques? The stuff I've heard from you so far seems pretty traditional.

Horse manure. I know a number of people on this forum, hopefully including myself, that are proof against this. Anyone who thinks melodic music is exhausted is making excuses to avoid having to follow tonal rules. It's a lot easier to write "scrambled fart music" (as you so aptly put it) - I mean, how much effort do you think it took Cage to write 4'33"?! I don't give a care if it's never been done before, if it doesn't show some skill and please someone's ears at least a little, it's worthless. I suggest that everything that has been said with SCRAMBLED FARTS has been said.

*gets off soap box*

We are indeed the next generation of composers, everyone on this forum. Let's make the future of art music something for our world to be proud of!

Well said. 4' 33" is not music...nor can it be said to be "composed." It is just psychological, self indulgent bulls***. We'll harp on it all we want caltechviolist.....john cage was a f***ing joke. nightscape once posted an actual piece of music by the man for piano...I forget what it was called. George Winston wrote better music when he was on the toilet.

I hold Cage and his ilk responsible for furthering the notion in "modern" music that anything unusual can be considered a truly accomplished work. A similar movement in art would be the appearance of such things as monotone canvasses (statements on the emptiness of life, my foot) and stacks of candy randomly thrown into a corner. While I admit Cage wrote some wonderfully innovative pieces, he also wrote a large amount of music that is (or at least should be) simply an embarassment to the musical world. I've heard some percussion works of his that make my toes curl... it sounds like he just went into a room with a bunch of objects and started banging around. I suspect that's actually what he did.

Music is really worthless unless you can get something out of it, whether that's enjoyment or learning. A lot of Cage's music is worthless, by that token.

I hold Cage and his ilk responsible for furthering the notion in "modern" music that anything unusual can be considered a truly accomplished work. A similar movement in art would be the appearance of such things as monotone canvasses (statements on the emptiness of life, my foot) and stacks of candy randomly thrown into a corner. While I admit Cage wrote some wonderfully innovative pieces, he also wrote a large amount of music that is (or at least should be) simply an embarassment to the musical world. I've heard some percussion works of his that make my toes curl... it sounds like he just went into a room with a bunch of objects and started banging around. I suspect that's actually what he did.

Music is really worthless unless you can get something out of it, whether that's enjoyment or learning. A lot of Cage's music is worthless, by that token.

Sorry if it seems like I'm targetting you johann, but I think I am. :P

You say music is worthless unless you can get something out of it, whether that's enjoyment or learning and I would agree with you. However, as a

I don't much care for most of his music but come one guys, do you really think music begins when you write a treble clef and ends when you write "fine"?

Oh and derek.... I've gotten some great ideas while sitting on the can, so don't you dare go tearing down my muse! :P

Tumababa, I thrive on silence. I even wrote an essay on how I require periods of silence every day. My point is that we shouldn't respect someone like Cage for those percussion pieces - I can have a two-year old go in there and write them, or sit at a piano and not play anything. Cage's audacity to call those things art music is what I blame him for; it's opened the doors for others to call their own similar works "music" and expect us to like what they've done and call them great composers. Cage's works, while unique and a good conversation piece, do not need to be respected as great music - that lowers the bar.

All I'm saying is that I find it hard to believe that a composer couldn't get anything out of hearing a two year old wail away on a percussion instrument of some kind.

Tumababa, you seem to be very open and a free spirit. It doesn't surprise me that you'd feel that way.

I understand where Jon is coming from because I'm way too uptight and my notion of what music is (and isn't) is far too rigid to get anything out of a pianist sitting at a piano and not playing anything for 4 minutes (that smacks of cynical charlatanism to me), or listening to a baby whack away at pots and pans (that's cute, but it's not music...not to me). Music and sound are not interchangeable or synonymous as far as I'm concerned.

I believe in the idea of an implicit contract between composer, performer and listener: all must agree sincerely that music is being made, or it isn't music.

Well Derek, I'm so glad you enjoyed my toilet music.

Tumababa, you seem to be very open and a free spirit. It doesn't surprise me that you'd feel that way.

I understand where Jon is coming from because I'm way too uptight and my notion of what music is (and isn't) is far too rigid to get anything out of a pianist sitting at a piano and not playing anything for 4 minutes (that smacks of cynical charlatanism to me), or listening to a baby whack away at pots and pans (that's cute, but it's not music...not to me). Music and sound are not interchangeable or synonymous as far as I'm concerned.

I believe in the idea of an implicit contract between composer, performer and listener: all must agree sincerely that music is being made, or it isn't music.

Ah! But Cage had that didn't he?

I mean, nobody signed anything but he did arrange concerts, performers performed at them, and correct me if I'm wrong but people DID attend..

...but I see this argument is pointless when we all have different ideas on what music actually is.

Can we at least agree that if someone comes along playing the spoons or something we will listen and not just dismiss it outright?

Yep. Spoons take a little skill to play well. Of course, a concert with just spoons the whole time would be a little hard to take... sorta like a duet for tambourine and triangle, only less interesting.

Well I think part of making music is to be aware of sounds, perceive them and reorder them in order create something that is music, however you reorder them will be the actual composition and it could be anything.... even if it is a 2 year old wailing on a paino, but chances are a composer would no wish to reorder sounds into that lol.

That's where I think John Cage is right. He proposes that if you're not completely open to new sounds then run

the risk of burning bridges.

Of course, this doesn't mean I would pay $180 dollars to hear him play a pinecone with a toothbrush.

I don't give a care if it's never been done before, if it doesn't show some skill and please someone's ears at least a little, it's worthless. I suggest that everything that has been said with SCRAMBLED FARTS has been said.

Amen!

Can we at least agree that if someone comes along playing the spoons or something we will listen and not just dismiss it outright?

Amen!

We should all be open to new music, but, I think that the best music we write will not come about through focusing all our attention on making it new and original and different.

I think we should all agree that if someone comes along playing the spoons we will listen and not just dismiss it outright, and that if someone comes along composing a baroque style composition we should not dismiss becasue its already been done.

Amen!