Extensions

Hi,

Do you guys know how 9ths, 11ths and 13ths (major, minor, sharpened, etc.) work?

I know how they're made but I want to know what is the "classical resolutions" and the non-classical ones (i.e.: chains of extensions?, a mix of 9ths, 11ths and 13ths?)

I don't know about "classical resolutions", but here's a little bit about how I see extensions.

They "fatten" up basic triads and seventh chords. The easiest chord to use extensions with is the dominant of the key. Diatonically, adding the 7th, and 9th works pretty well, but the 11th is usually raised. I know that then it implies that the V chord is actually the IV chord, but trust me it works. Also the dominant 7th will keep it as a dominant chord. The major 13th is easy to add in that chord too. Now if you want to add some spice, modify some chord tones on the dominant and that sounds great. For example instead of C F G7 C, use C F G7b9#11 C. the raised 9th works equally well, especially in conjunction with the lowered or raised 5th. This works particularly well. The more extensions you use, the more "jazzy" the piece will sound, but more "modern" composers (Ravel, Debussy...) used them a lot too. If you know how to use "planing" (think Debussy) try planing with an extended dominant chord. Sounds great.

The "I" chord also can be extended easily, particularly in jazz. Try adding a 6th to the major triad. In jazz it breaks up the "loungy" sound of the mojor 7th. Also add the 6th and the 9th, which is a simplification of a 13th chord. For example a C69 chord is spelled C E G A D. Here's a nice progression: G9 #11 to C69. (69 is 6,9) so here are the spellings: G B D F A C# (often drop the D) to C E G A D.

The minor "i" chord is most often extended with the MAJOR 6th or MAJOR 7th. This will create a lot of dissonance but it sounds great. Higher extensions on the "i" chord seem uncommon.

Do NOT add a minor 7th to the "i" chord, it will make it sound like a "ii7" chord. The "ii" chord, however, can take on the minor 7th and major 9th easily. Also the perfect 11th. (so D F A C E G)

On diminished triads, try adding the major 7th, major 9th, perfect 11th, and minor 13th.

for half-diminished chords, the major or minor 9th work well, keep the 11th perfect and the 13th minor.

For all chords, the 9th is not usually added without the 6th or 7th, the 11th is not usually added without the 6th or 7th and 9th. The 13th is often used as an added 6th which technically changes the chord, for ie., C6 is actually aminor7 in 1st inversion.

Does that help at all?

*Edit* here are the files. 4 variations.

These are the examples of planing, from my second response. Sorry about confusion in posts.

1. Diatonic planing of a first inversion triad

2. Diatonic planing of a root position seventh chord

3. Strict planing of a minor-minor seventh chord

4. Strict planing of a dominant 7th b9 chord ( notice how "demonic" it sounds)

planing.MID

planing.MUS

planing.pdf

Lot of stuff lol...I'll try to remember some

Oh, and what'swhat's planing?

Planing is a type of non-functional harmonization using parallel chord structures. In its simplest form, you take the melody and each melody note becomes a chord factor (usually the root) of the accompaniment. Now here you can go two ways: The parallel structures can be diatonic, which mean that they will retain their voicing and entensions, but will change colors (i.e. Cmaj7 dmin7 emin7 Fmaj7 G7 amin7 bhalfdim7) or they will retain their exact structure and venture outside the key (i.e. cmin7 dmin7 emin7 fmin7...) . The first works really well to create modal sonorities as in some classical pieces or jazz (like Miles Davis' "So What") while the second is more colorful.

I'll illustrate this for you with the tune "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". I'll work it out on Finale and add the examples shortly. As I mentioned before, this is a technique that Debussy used a lot.

look at my original response. I added the planing examples

It's a big subject. You have a few choices about approaching it - one is to learn "advanced" harmony/voice leading, (the academic stuff) which would take some time (and doesn't come up with all the answers*); the other is to compose and gather experience as you go.

You need to be aware of suspensions, appoggiaturas. These usually resolve. They can resolve onto harmony notes (of the same or next chord), but also onto a discord which in turn will seek resolution. There are academic rules about this but I find them hopelessly restrictive. Sometimes the music will suggest you forget resolution and just move onto another chord. One has to consider each case as it arises.

The colouring of basic triads ultimately comes down to progressions and good musical taste. It's just as important to give some respite with basic triads (or less-decorated ones) so the colouring stands out and doesn't get too sickly, or become atonal.

There is much to learn so it's best to start with the simpler chromatic discords and see what works in given progressions. But if you happen to land on a super-sounding chord, write it down and see what you can do with it. Don't get too involved with terminology (unless that's your scene, of course) but you'll find people tying themselves in knots with it. More complicated harmony means analysing chords in context rather than isolation or you end up with some really weird ideas! My own compositions are fairly chromatic but I still think in basic triads and the decorations are just that, decorations.

Good luck.

:)

* like if using our western scale then a chord can comprise up to 11 elements plus the root, something not treated in standard texts that I know of because they're still tied to traditional diatonic harmony.

Hi,

Do you guys know how 9ths, 11ths and 13ths (major, minor, sharpened, etc.) work?

I know how they're made but I want to know what is the "classical resolutions" and the non-classical ones (i.e.: chains of extensions?, a mix of 9ths, 11ths and 13ths?)

As far as "classical resolutions" - I think you're looking for a simple answer when it's a little too involved to list the hows and whys of each.

Just for example. (In harmony of 4 parts). Dominant 9th chord only:

Resolution 1:

Upon root of same chord:

1)Omit root of Dominant 9th chord (9th resolves to this note)

2)Rarely if ever use the major 9th below the 3rd

Resolution 2:

Upon the 3rd of the same chord:

1) 3rd of Dominant 9th must be ommitted since the 9th resolves to this note and sounding it would cause the leading note to be doubled

2) 9th may resolve by rising a 3rd or falling a 7th. When 9th rises a 2nd to the 3rd, a major 9th may be taken in a minor key. In every other instance, the 9th in a minor key must be minor.

Resolution 3:

Upon the 5th of the Tonic Chord

1) Omit root of Dominant 9th (9th resolves to this note)

2) Rarely if ever use the major 9th below the 3rd.

3) Take care that 5th and major 9th move in contrary motion to one another, if the 5th is below the 9th, else consecutive 5ths will occur.

General rules applying to all progressions:

1)No part may move by augmented interval

2)Leading note must rise except in the case of following tonic note

3)No doubling of leading note

4)No parrellel 5ths

5)No parrellel 8ths

6)Outside parts may not move by similiar motion to a 5th

Except:

A)From tonic to Dominant or SubDominant to Tonic, where top part moves a 2nd

B) From one to another position of the same chord

7) Outside parts may not move by similiar motion to an 8th

Except:

A)From Dominant to Tonic, or Tonic to Subdominant, where top part moves a 2nd

B)When the second of the two chords is a 6/4(second inversion)

8) No parts may cross over each other.

9)No doubling of major third in first inversion chords

...

I'm sure I've missed some.

Courtesy: Stewart MacPherson - late Fellow, Professor and Lecturer, Royal Academy of Music.

Thanks about all this guys!

Just because I'm never satisfied :P , I got another question about it:

How can I use extesensions in a non-jazz context?

It always sound jazzy, how can I use them for a classical/romantic piece (if this is possible)?

I suggest you take some post-romantic/impressionistic composers, listen to some of their pieces and select a few for careful study. The best way to understand structures and devices is to understand them in context.

Thanks about all this guys!

Just because I'm never satisfied :P , I got another question about it:

How can I use extesensions in a non-jazz context?

It always sound jazzy, how can I use them for a classical/romantic piece (if this is possible)?

Generally speaking - dissonances in classical are resolved, even if they are to a lesser dissonance. For instance, from a Dominant 9th to a Dominant 7th. Dominant 7th's being resolved on Tonic or Submediant, and sometimes to an inversion of the SubDominant.

The 'jazzy' sound (again generally speaking) comes from consistantly using dissonance after dissonance in the form of 7th's 9ths,13ths etc.

I'm sure there are exceptions in classical/romantic music though - but generally this is what I've found.

I've answered your question in my post above for one chord with an extension - the Dominant 9th.

Extensions are NOT dissonances. They are tensions. There is a difference. Extensions can be as dissonant or consonant as triad tones.

Extensions are NOT dissonances. They are tensions. There is a difference. Extensions can be as dissonant or consonant as triad tones.

They are dissonances - or tensions. The two terms are synonymous in a harmony context.

You can have dissonance that's resolved (releived tension) or dissonance that's not resolved, but it's still dissonant at that moment when it is sounded.

Dissonant music, however - often is describing the music as a whole, a series of mostly unresolved dissonances(or unresolved tensions if you like).

The difference you are talking about is the context of resolved or not resolved. But that has nothing to do with 2 or more notes being in dis-cord at a given moment in time.

Thanks about all this guys!

Just because I'm never satisfied ;) , I got another question about it:

How can I use extesensions in a non-jazz context?

It always sound jazzy, how can I use them for a classical/romantic piece (if this is possible)?

Simple answer.... don't write jazz!

More complicated answer.... to me, it's all about chord architecture. You have to play around with how the chord is built to get a non-jazzy sound. If you play lots of II-V-I's they will sound jazzy. My advice is to pay more attention to the possibilities of alternate destinations for these new wacky chords.

Extensions are NOT dissonances. They are tensions. There is a difference. Extensions can be as dissonant or consonant as triad tones.

It's just a technical point - the difference here might be differing terminology between the UK and US.

In those few harmony books I have (just found and dusted down Kitson Part III - blimey, a while since I opened this one) all chords with extensions (9ths 11ths and 13ths) are referred to as discords... because the extensions are dissonant. That's the academic take here.

They may cause tensions or not.

If you have a moment, here's the closing cadence of a wordless madrigal - just a couple of bars

mp3

It's V.11a -> I.9a. .[the V11a also includes the 3rd to affirm it's dominant, not some weird mutant plagal!].

The 9 on the tonic isn't a tension (in UK terminology at least) but is still a dissonance. It doesn't resolve - doesn't need to: the root is already present as the bass of chord.

Yeesh... you guys over there have all sorts of wacky jargon....

"Semi Quavers? Breves? Kippers?" What the hell IS all that stuff?

;)

Yeesh... you guys over there have all sorts of wacky jargon....

"Semi Quavers? Breves? Kippers?" What the hell IS all that stuff?

:D

Corrr, not 'arf. You could a' knocked me dahn wiv a fev-ver!

Semi Quavers? - half-eaten little crispy things that taste vaguely of feet cheese.

Breves? - that's what we guys wear at the swimmin pool.to show off our augmented intervals...

Kippers? - they're what you slap yourself with to atone for playing wrong notes.

If you REALLY want to atone for all that bad playing, you're sentenced to a month of atonal music - thats why it was invented. ;)

:D

Ok, let me elaborate on the extesions: dissonance or tensions thing

I still hold that extensions can be consonant or dissonant. Work with me on this, once I explain the difference go to a piano and check out if you can hear what I'm talking about. The most obvious example is a major triad with an added major 6th and major 9th. Go play C E G A D. Is it really dissonnt? That chord is actually a Cmaj13 chord, omitting the 11th and 7th. I think it's lush, but definetely not dissonant.

For now we will look at all the higher extensions as simple intervals instead of compound intervals. In that case, 9ths become 2nds, 11hs becoe 4ths, and 13ths become 6ths.

The basic rule is that if the extension is 1 whole step above a triad tone it is a tension, not a dissonance. It the extension is a 1/2 step above a triad tone, then it is dissonant. So in the case of a 9th, relate it to the root. In the case of a C major chord, C is the root so D natural is the "tension" and Db is the dissonance. Add a seventh either major or minor. A Cmaj9 (C E G B D) will be full sounding, but will not be dissonant, while a Cmaj7b9 (C E G B Db) will be considerably dissonant. A C7b9 (C E G Bb Db) will appear even more dissonant because the tritone between E and Bb needs to be resolved, but that has nothing to do with the extension. By comparison, a C9 (C E G Bb D) will not be as dissonant, because the 9th is a tension, not a dissonance.

The same goes with the 11th in a major triad, but this creates something unexpected. You would imagine that a Perfect 11th (reduced to Perfect 4th) would be more consonant then the Augmented 11th, which is outside of the expected key, but that not true. An augmented 11h is a whole step above the 3rd, so it's a tension not dissonance. Conversly, a perfect 11th is a 1/2 step above the 3rd, so it's a dissonance. Note that in a minor triad, the diminished 11th (b11) is dissonant (I've never een it used) and the Perfect 11th is a tension. The augmented 11th is just silly. So the following are some examples of dissonant 11th chords:

C11 (C E G Bb D F) cmin9 (b11) (C Eb G Bb D Fb)

Cmaj11 (C E G B D F) cmin(maj7)(add 9, b11) (C Eb G B D Fb) (now that's a crazy chord)

while these should NOT be considered dissonant:

C9 #11 (C E G Bb D F#) cmin11 (C Eb G Bb D F)

Cmaj9 #11 ( C E G B D F#) cmin11(maj7) (C Eb G B D F)

Of course lowering or raising the 9ths will also add dissonance

and for the 13th, if it's a whole step above the 5th it's a tension and if 1/2 step, then dissonant as well.

so the following are very dissonant chords:

C11 (b9 b13) cdim7(b9)

while these not so much:

C7 (#11) C9b5 (#11 b13)

now go try some of these and see if you agree.

I think it's dangerous for me to redefine what's commonly accepted. Maybe the terms are redefined in a Jazz context or whatever - I like some Jazz, but I do detest the "alternate theory" you have to learn. For instance - CEGA is not Cadd6 its a bloody inversion of the Am7 chord!

A second that is a tone apart, like a major 2nd is obviously less dissonant than a minor second - but it is still dissonant.

I'm a stickler for definitions. And I don't mind dissonance - but you cannot - in my opinion (and my taste, since I'm sure there will be those who disagree) - create pleasing works based only or mostly on dissonances (even less "harsh" ones that are a tone instead of semitone away) like you can with consonant intervals.

That's why a peice using only major 2nds, perfect4ths, minor 7ths etc would still sound disagreeable (not lush) where a peice using only consonant intervals would be pleasing (if sometimes a bit boring harmony wise)

Edit* - just to clarify the above, I mean harmony solely built on major 2nds,perfect 4ths,minor 7ths etc - as intervals, not as extensions or added notes to already consonant relationships. In other words, a peice without consonant relationships will sound harsh, whereas a peice with only consonant relationships but without any dissonant relationships (to my mind) is agreeable but sometimes rigid and boring.

Ok. WHatever.

That's why a peice using only major 2nds, perfect4ths, minor 7ths etc would still sound disagreeable (not lush) where a peice using only consonant intervals would be pleasing (if sometimes a bit boring harmony wise)

I think it depends on the chord architecture. I mean, you CAN make M2s, P4s, and m7s sound really hostile and jagged if you want to. BUT you can make them sound so lush and gorgeous if you want to. The first

chord in Barber's Adagio For Strings is a minor seventh chord after all!

And what about Ravel? Valley Of The Bells is one of my most favorite piano pieces of all time. Beautiful stacks of parallel fourths in there that sound gorgeous to my ear. Granted we have different ears(I'm assuming this here).

But you're right. It's a taste thing.

I think it depends on the chord architecture. I mean, you CAN make M2s, P4s, and m7s sound really hostile and jagged if you want to. BUT you can make them sound so lush and gorgeous if you want to. The first

chord in Barber's Adagio For Strings is a minor seventh chord after all!

And what about Ravel? Valley Of The Bells is one of my most favorite piano pieces of all time. Beautiful stacks of parallel fourths in there that sound gorgeous to my ear. Granted we have different ears(I'm assuming this here).

But you're right. It's a taste thing.

I'm not familiar with Valley of the Bells, nor Barber's Adagio for Strings. Have a link?

In any case M2,P4 and M7's don't sound "lush" without the consonant relationships they are built on. That was the point of my post. They are dissonant intervals, and as extentions, they only really work because they are not alone in their dissonance - in other words, they sound "lush" only because of their juxtaposition with consonance.

Hmmmm...So you're basically just saying that whether or not you percieve them as dissonant depends on the context? You seem to be agreeing with me, unless I'm not understanding you properly.

I can't believe you've never heard Barber's Adagio for strings. I'm seriously shocked.

http://www.hemenpaylas.com/download/552303...trings.mp3.html

There's the only link I could find. Kinda iffy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGOvE0RucDM&search=Ravel

There's valley of the bells. One of my favs....

I have a feeling we are again circling another argument where we both actually agree.

*Edit* here are the files. 4 variations.

These are the examples of planing, from my second response. Sorry about confusion in posts.

1. Diatonic planing of a first inversion triad

2. Diatonic planing of a root position seventh chord

3. Strict planing of a minor-minor seventh chord

4. Strict planing of a dominant 7th b9 chord ( notice how "demonic" it sounds)

Attached File(s)

planing.pdf ( 82.67k ) Number of downloads: 2

planing.MID ( 5.84k ) Number of downloads: 5

planing.MUS ( 65.54k ) Number of downloads: 0[/b]

By the way, did anyone find my examples of the planing techniques useful?

Not personally. I'm ok with this kind of thing. Perhaps they helped the topic-starter though. It's a bit of a subject to take in, in one go, for someone new.

M

Yup, it's interesting, thanks

Hi,

Do you guys know how 9ths, 11ths and 13ths (major, minor, sharpened, etc.) work?

[/b]

First of all this forum is the ULTIMATE for guys like us to discuss these things so let me put my veiw down.

The word dissonance does not mean "bad',"wrong",,"not nice sounding".It is a term that theorist put to 2 notes that have a complex frequency relationship and that means that they rub against each other instead of vibration together with less rub.

Dissonance is like the salt and pepper and consonance is like the soup with no additives.

When the dissoant note is put in with the consonant ones (extended triad 7th chord,9th,11th etc) the dissonant note wants to go in a particular direction and that is down to the nearest simple fequency(its natural resolution) but this doesnt mean that you "have" to do that.It all depends on the objective of what you are writing.It is an artistic decesion to treat dissonance traditionally or to contradict tradition.

Dont think of these extensions as chords ,but think of them as flavouring the basic underlying triad.You can argue that they are chords of course but the truth is that chords are born from moving voices and that theorists decided to label them as a vertical structure, but the level at which they work is stricktly horizontal. The consonant notes of a triad vibrate so well together because they all belong to one single overtone series,and the triad has no imediate need to move(context based of course).

So how do they work?

A V7 or V9 etc still functions as a dominant of the I chord so long as the the 5th degree of the scale is supported or implied as being the root.The extra tones are just tints and shades for variety and dont change its function unless they overpower the root as root of the sonority.These extra tones drive the music forward because they seek resolution and at the same time add salt and pepper to the soup(triad).So they work the same way as a normal triad built on the same degree,you just have more note to resolve if you want to resolve them.

Dont ever say "this chord sounds dissonant" because you are implying that it sounds out of place or wrong or yuck!.Dissonance is what is making it sound that way but the whole sound is not "dissonanting" .Only one note is tainting/coloring, the uderlying consonance(triad).How can we say that it sounds dissonant when the majority of it is connsonant?.I prefer to say that it sounds harsher than this or that or richer etc.

Here is an analolgy to explain myself better.you take a can of white paint(connsonance) and add a little red to it(dissonance).the color becomes white with a very subtle shade of red in it.(extented chord).

Now how can you look at that and say that it is red(dissonant)!!! or that it looks dissonant(red)!! .It really looks like white with a shade of red and and i would say that it looks great or ugly depending on which furniture(musical context) i put against it. It really is that simple,though i am expecting some of you to dissagree,but hey,that what forums are all about and i look forward to a healthy debate with you guys.

I am glad that i finnaly found a forum where the guys are educated in music and not just arrogant 3 chord wonder kids that think they know everything.I cop so much abuse in my home town from the local musicians because they think that if you have musical knowledge then you are an un-musical robot.

Thanks guys and take care.