How To Achieve A New Focus On Real Performances For Yc

Whenever someone posts a good live recording of their piece, its a pleasant surprise. Now, I know that it can be tricky, expensive, time-consuming, or all three, to produce a good recording, but I've often read comments here by people who don't even consider it a possibility.

There are often competitions for composition, but how about a competition for music performance? I'm guessing that many people, myself included, could benefit from focusing more on performing as well. I think it helps to play an instrument in order to write idiomatically for it. For example, someone who doesn't play piano might write an excessively demanding piece where a simpler approach might be more effective. 

So, an idea for a performance competition could be that the winner could have a piece performed. We could perhaps sort entrants into categories fitting their musical ability, (i.e beginner, intermediate, advanced) so that everyone feels included, and we need to have a few experts assembled who have agreed to perform the winning piece. It would be great to see lots of helpful feedback about live performances on this site as well as the composition reviews.

Anyway, what do you think?

Supah-like!!!!  Let's do it!  

On a related note, how about a contest where the style/instrumentation is completely open, but you must have a live recording and the point is to judge the live recording and by extension, how realistically playable your piece was?  It feels a little easier to ask your friends help you do a recording of a piece if it's for a one-time contest, rather than just because you compose stuff.  (Because then they worry you are going to suddenly take up all their spare evenings recording ALL your stuff.)  (:

Hmmm… maybe I'll do a banjo piece.  I play, but I've never sat down and really thoughtfully composed something…  http://youtu.be/7ik91bKHMl8

i like the idea a lot.

but gee Dan. could you not have thought of this like... 5 months ago, back when i couldn't get any of my pieces performed. now my school's pep band is performing some of my arrangements (football game tonight, super excited! :D ! :D ! :D !)

i think i'm going to sit this one out, so others can hear their pieces performed. i would have loved this thread a few months back. not saying that i would've won for sure, but i don't want to end up denying others of the opportunity to hear their compositions. 

I'm still in full support of the idea. hearing your pieces live really does help you know what works and what doesn't.

i like the idea a lot.

 

but gee Dan. could you not have thought of this like... 5 months ago, back when i couldn't get any of my pieces performed. now my school's pep band is performing some of my arrangements (football game tonight, super excited! :D ! :D ! :D !)

 

i think i'm going to sit this one out, so others can hear their pieces performed. i would have loved this thread a few months back. not saying that i would've won for sure, but i don't want to end up denying others of the opportunity to hear their compositions. 

 

I'm still in full support of the idea. hearing your pieces live really does help you know what works and what doesn't.

That's awesome! Are you getting something on this site performed?

That's awesome! Are you getting something on this site performed?

No, but now that you mention it i may post one of them, but mostly all of them are just little 7 second riffs. I'll work on putting them together in one audio file.

Riffs?
Are you a composer or not!? :P

You talk like a rock guitarist..
(Not that there's anything wrong with that, if you're Angus Young)

Riffs?

Are you a composer or not!? :P

You talk like a rock guitarist..

(Not that there's anything wrong with that, if you're Angus Young)

you do know what i mean though? like the little 7 second pep band thingy's. 

gosh i sound silly.   :blush:

How about, go to concerts and other events that musicians will tend to attend, meet the musicians before or after, become friends or professional acquantances, and then get them to perform your work.

I don't get how this is such a difficult concept for people, except maybe for the fact that young composers tend to be nerds who recoil in shock at the idea of talking to people of a shared interest.

How do these people think the thousands of daily performances around the globe happen?

How about, go to concerts and other events that musicians will tend to attend, meet the musicians before or after, become friends or professional acquantances, and then get them to perform your work.

 

I don't get how this is such a difficult concept for people, except maybe for the fact that young composers tend to be nerds who recoil in shock at the idea of talking to people of a shared interest.

 

How do these people think the thousands of daily performances around the globe happen?

It may not be that straightforward to get a live recording in the way you suggested. People might be busy, or there might not be many events / concerts nearby. Did you consider those possibilities?  I think you made several, arrogant  assumptions about this community.

The main point of my original post was to encourage us to perform and create live recordings, of not necessarily our own music.

Anyway, I'm curious to know how the 'talking to people of a shared interest' is going for you?

i agree with U238 to a point. if you have a community orchestra or band, chances are they are looking for music to play. depending on how nice the conductor (or whoever chooses the music) is, you may not even have to be close friends. i bet if you asked the music-chooser-person-guy they would be totally cool with performing one of your pieces. he gets a new piece for free, like, why wouldn't he.

but that's for a large concert bands or orchestras. this thread seems more aimed towards small chamber ensembles. vocal duets, woodwind trios, so on so forth. these are harder to get performed because you may actually have to become close friends with the performers, and some of them may be older folk (or at least older than me). i can say as a 14 year old composer i would not feel comfortable becoming friends with someone who is 30+ just so they could perform my piece. 

this could also help the YC community grow. and YC really needs to grow.

I totally agree with Dan and Aquatunic. This community could benefit so much from something like this. With competitions not garnering enough submissions (or none) and so little activity and reviewing going on (I confess to being a part of the problem there since I don't review very often), I feel like we really need to look for ways to make people want to participate more and give them ways to grow more individually. This goes towards both of these goals.

i agree with U238 to a point. if you have a community orchestra or band, chances are they are looking for music to play. depending on how nice the conductor (or whoever chooses the music) is, you may not even have to be close friends. i bet if you asked the music-chooser-person-guy they would be totally cool with performing one of your pieces. he gets a new piece for free, like, why wouldn't he.

 

 

 

but that's for a large concert bands or orchestras. this thread seems more aimed towards small chamber ensembles. vocal duets, woodwind trios, so on so forth. these are harder to get performed because you may actually have to become close friends with the performers, and some of them may be older folk (or at least older than me). i can say as a 14 year old composer i would not feel comfortable becoming friends with someone who is 30+ just so they could perform my piece. 

 

 

this could also help the YC community grow. and YC really needs to grow.

It may not be that straightforward to get a live recording in the way you suggested. People might be busy, or there might not be many events / concerts nearby. Did you consider those possibilities?  I think you made several, arrogant  assumptions about this community.

The main point of my original post was to encourage us to perform and create live recordings, of not necessarily our own music.

Anyway, I'm curious to know how the 'talking to people of a shared interest' is going for you?

How is it going for me? Great, because I'm not scared to talk to people. There are basically 0 places in civilized areas that don't have some sort of performance opportunities. That's the great thing about music, it's ubiquitous throughout all of human culture.

The arrogant assumption I make is that people are too stupid to go meet a musician and ask them to play something they wrote. It's as simple as that.

Small ensembles are infinitely easier to get performances for! Large ensembles generally have a set list of pieces they perform, or the repertoire is set by higher ups, not to mention that a young composer absolutely under no circumstances should be encouraged to write for a large ensemble in the first place!

Chamber ensembles much more often are managed by the players themselves, they set their own repertoire and organize their own performances. It makes so much more sense for a young composer to approach a small ensemble with their work.

And having to be friends with them is a barrier? Yeah, I guess. Just as much as it is in any other endeavour. Part of being a professional is cultivating these personal relationships. There's a reason why people emphasize networking so much in almost any discipline. Sometimes, it really is all about who you know.

So go to concerts, meet the musicians. Add them on facebook, be their friends. Go to artsy scraggy and make a name for yourself in your local art community so that people know that guy writes music. So when a local violinist gets together with some of his friends to start a new string quartet and they're telling themselves they need to find some exciting new music to fill out their concert schedule they can think of that composer they met at the art show last week.

U238, I get what you're saying and I won't dispute that there are plenty of ways for us as composers to take charge and get our music out there and performed. I agree that networking is probably the most important nonmusical aspect of being a composer. I just wish you would say these things in a less abrasive way. If you had said it in a more friendly and constructive tone, I don't think anyone would have a problem with you making what is a markedly pertinent and legitimate point.

How is it going for me? Great, because I'm not scared to talk to people. There are basically 0 places in civilized areas that don't have some sort of performance opportunities. That's the great thing about music, it's ubiquitous throughout all of human culture.

 

The arrogant assumption I make is that people are too stupid to go meet a musician and ask them to play something they wrote. It's as simple as that.

 

Small ensembles are infinitely easier to get performances for! Large ensembles generally have a set list of pieces they perform, or the repertoire is set by higher ups, not to mention that a young composer absolutely under no circumstances should be encouraged to write for a large ensemble in the first place!

 

Chamber ensembles much more often are managed by the players themselves, they set their own repertoire and organize their own performances. It makes so much more sense for a young composer to approach a small ensemble with their work.

 

And having to be friends with them is a barrier? Yeah, I guess. Just as much as it is in any other endeavour. Part of being a professional is cultivating these personal relationships. There's a reason why people emphasize networking so much in almost any discipline. Sometimes, it really is all about who you know.

 

So go to concerts, meet the musicians. Add them on facebook, be their friends. Go to artsy scraggy and make a name for yourself in your local art community so that people know that guy writes music. So when a local violinist gets together with some of his friends to start a new string quartet and they're telling themselves they need to find some exciting new music to fill out their concert schedule they can think of that composer they met at the art show last week.

you would be suprised on how hard it can be to find people to perform your music. i live in a little miniature town next to a little polluted river, and the only oppurtunities to play are in my school band and a tiny little community orchestra about 30 miles away. the only local chamber performance i've ever seen was a string quartet from one of the surrounding schools. (and of course the woodwind trio that i'm in, but that's different because it was put together because we had 6th period study hall together. not everyone in the world has 6th period study hall together.)

my next point is that, somewhere in your area you have a community orchestra where all the old codgers dig up their instruments and just play for fun. it isn't a professional orchestra by any means but they still sound better than your computer. i'm sure they would be happy to perform something of yours. 

why shouldn't a young composer try to write for a large ensemble. i do it, and my compositions don't necessarily sound bad (i sure hope not.) my teacher asked if our band could play some of my arrangements. so i should be living proof that a young composer can write whatever he wants and be good at it.

once again, not everyone does have small ensembles in their area. i don't (although i do live in the middle of nowhere :( ) and maybe if they do there isn't persay a woodwind trio specifically or maybe there isn't a brass quintet.

activities like this help the community grow, which is definitely a good thing

If you had said it in a more friendly and constructive tone, I don't think anyone would have a problem with you making what is a markedly pertinent and legitimate point.

I don't [redacted by moderator], and neither does the rest of the world. If you think that once you grow up and become a part of the professional world that people are going to carefully choose each word they say so as not to make poor ol' baby cry, you're in for a rude awakening.

If someone wants to ignore good advice because it doesn't invole [redacted by moderator] then they are not worthy of it to begin with.

you would be suprised on how hard it can be to find people to perform your music. i live in a little miniature town next to a little polluted river, and the only oppurtunities to play are in my school band and a tiny little community orchestra about 30 miles away. the only local chamber performance i've ever seen was a string quartet from one of the surrounding schools. (and of course the woodwind trio that i'm in, but that's different because it was put together because we had 6th period study hall together. not everyone in the world has 6th period study hall together.)

 

why shouldn't a young composer try to write for a large ensemble. i do it, and my compositions don't necessarily sound bad (i sure hope not.) my teacher asked if our band could play some of my arrangements. so i should be living proof that a young composer can write whatever he wants and be good at it.

You have a school band, and a community orchestra 30 miles away. That means there are at the very least several hundred professional or semiprofessional grade musicians within reach. If you are not able to get at least one of these musicians to work with you it is a failing on your part. QUIT MAKING EXCUSES and go out and MAKE a name for yourself. Why do the big composers get big? Because they don't make excuses, they don't tell themselves it's too hard because out of the hundreds if not thousands of instrumentalists within WALKING distance of their house no one will pay attention to them. They go out and they make it happen because it's what's important to them.

As for a beginner writing for large ensembles, I have already made this point countless times on this site. You can ignore it if you life.

As I've said before, you wouldn't go into a middle school shop class and ask them to construct a space shuttle. You wouldn't ask an apprentice mason who is just learning how to apply mortar to a brick to build a lifesize reconstruction of the great wall of china. You learn the small stuff first so that you have the capability to weild the large number of voices and timbres available in an orchestra.

Of course you can still do it, but it will be poorly constructed plain and simple. A beginner that composes for orchestra is someone who does not respect the medium.

 

 

 

 

You have a school band, and a community orchestra 30 miles away. That means there are at the very least several hundred professional or semiprofessional grade musicians within reach. If you are not able to get at least one of these musicians to work with you it is a failing on your part. 

many of my compositions have been played. so really i'm not failing in that sense at all. as for other people, not everyone is confident enough in their pieces to be comfortable asking a professional to "waste their time"  to play a composition that they aren't necessarily confident in.

 

 

As for a beginner writing for large ensembles, I have already made this point countless times on this site. You can ignore it if you life.

 

As I've said before, you wouldn't go into a middle school shop class and ask them to construct a space shuttle. You wouldn't ask an apprentice mason who is just learning how to apply mortar to a brick to build a lifesize reconstruction of the great wall of china. You learn the small stuff first so that you have the capability to weild the large number of voices and timbres available in an orchestra.

 

Of course you can still do it, but it will be poorly constructed plain and simple. A beginner that composes for orchestra is someone who does not respect the medium.

don't worry sir, i started on the small ensembles and have worked my way up to small-ish concert bands. i've already done that. and there is this thing called review where you can listen to someone's song first. then judge them on it afterward, rather than just assuming i don't know how to use the instruments effectively. i know this seems very self-promoting and kind of cocky, but you can judge for your self. http://www.youngcomposers.com/music/listen/6349/flight-of-the-unicorn/

"you can ignore if you life" haha typos.  :P lol.

many of my compositions have been played. so really i'm not failing in that sense at all. as for other people, not everyone is confident enough in their pieces to be comfortable asking a professional to "waste their time"  to play a composition that they aren't necessarily confident in.

Then they deserve to not be performed. They are right in not bringing it to someone. If it isn't worth your time and effort, and you don't think it is worth their time and effort, then it probably isn't worth being performed. Again, sometimes people just need to grow some damn balls and take the risk. If you don't take the risk, why would anyone else take a risk on you? How is anyone ever going to know you're there to take a risk on in the first place?

My point about writing for large ensembles stands. If you are having trouble getting a handful of musicians to look at a work, it is pretty silly to imagine trying to get an entire orchestra to look at something. If you have a repertoire of chamber works under your belt and you have the ability, logistical capability, and networking skills to achieve an orchestral performance than by all means feel free. I was under the impression that we were not discussing that sort of person here.

I was saying someone who has very limited experience with little to no chamber works to speak of would be foolish to attempt orchestral writing when they could be better off writing simpler music that actually has a chance of an ensemble giving a serious look to.

 

My point about writing for large ensembles stands. If you are having trouble getting a handful of musicians to look at a work, it is pretty silly to imagine trying to get an entire orchestra to look at something

i get what your trying to say, but putting together a group of busy professionals may be harder than asking a conductor of an already existing orchestra (or band) to play a piece. especially if they are nice, like my band teacher happened to be. :)

i get what your trying to say, but putting together a group of busy professionals may be harder than asking a conductor of an already existing orchestra (or band) to play a piece. especially if they are nice, like my band teacher happened to be. :)

You're absolutely right... in general, working with a pre-existing group (whether it's an orchestra, band, or a chamber group) is MUCH easier than recruiting individual performers and slapping something together. And to work with such a group, all you need is one contact (ideally the conductor), so U238's point seems like kind of a non-sequitur. Generally, community and school groups tend to be relatively open to performing new pieces (as long as they are relatively easy from a technical standpint). With professional orchestras, it's obviously a different story, but often they will have competitions where you can submit scores for readings or performances (the upside to these is that, if your music is good enough, you don't really have to "network" beforehand to get a good performance... but having the performance and recording under your belt gives you more credibility and, I think, makes it easier to get other performers interested in your work.)

I feel like this leads to one of the central paradoxes of being a composer: to get good performers to take you seriously, you often need good recordings of your music, but to get good recordings, you need good performers to take you seriously. This is why competitions that offer a performance are an extremely valuable "foot in the door" to young composers... and why I think the DanDJTitchener's idea here is a very good one.

On the relatively-unrelated note of young composers writing for large ensembles, I'd say that it isn't as clear-cut as U238 is making it out to be. We write what we hear, so if you grew up playing in a wind band, you're probably going to start off writing better band pieces than string quartets. Yes, there are elements of orchestration and balance that take years to master, but the same can be true for chamber music... in the latter case, you have to do more with less, which can take a lot of control-- and can be very daunting if you tend to think in broad gestures and varied colours, which you probably do if you play in bands and orchestras and are used to hearing that kind of music. (Steven Bryant, a relatively successful band composer, mentioned that he is terrified of writing chamber music and tries to avoid it at all costs.) There's no one right approach, and I think that kind of prescriptivism has led to the artistic downfall of many a young composer.

As to U238's comments, I feel like this really needs to be said: Unless you are either (1) paying them very well or (2) already very established, performers are  doing you a favour by performing your work--by taking a risk to spend their valuable time on a piece nobody has heard before. This is how all of us, performers and composers, get by in the music world: we help each other out. And that is precisely what the proposed competition (not to mention this entire site) is about: using our network on Young Composers to create new performance opportunities and improve our lot as composers. Given how much you seem to value the spirit of "networking", I'd think you would welcome this idea with open arms--heck, maybe even try to convince a few of your supposed multitudes of performer friends to record the winning composition--rather than trying to discourage young composers from taking the initiative to create outside-the-box performance opportunities.

Unless you are either (1) paying them very well or (2) already very established, performers are  doing you a favour by performing your work--by taking a risk to spend their valuable time on a piece nobody has heard before. 

And when you say "valuable time," you really mean valuable time.  One of the groups I sing with spent over $30,000 on the orchestra for just one concert.  That doesn't include the conductor's salary, advertising, the performance space, or the lady in charge of ticket sales.  $30,000 just for the orchestra for one concert. 

So yes.  As a young composer, your chances of getting new work premiered with an established group are small.  They might love the idea of helping you out, but they just can't take the chance unless you can guarantee that you will sell out all their tickets for them.  

Networking with other composers here is GREAT since most of us also play an instrument!  Getting a teacher to use your work with their student group, or playing your own piece at a recital is really do-able.  And writing pieces for smaller groups, or soloists is smart, since then you are talking about someone taking a $1,000 gamble on your piece, instead of a $50,000 gamble.  (:

(In related news, I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If you have something appropriate for a small church chamber choir of mainly volunteers, a cappella or with organ or piano, send it my way.  The other choir I sing with needs 3 or 4 pieces every week for the Sunday service, so buying music gets EXPENSIVE.  Our director loves programming work by up and coming composers.  Because the music is often free.  And because it's fun to do something new and different.  I can't guarantee we'll do your piece, or when we'll do your piece, or that we'll do a totally perfect job when we do your piece, but if you've got something appropriate for a church service, send it my way.  It may sit in the library for 5 years and then suddenly make an appearance some Sunday when the text is a good match for the minister's sermon.  The music department is ALWAYS over-budget between pay for staff (that's me!), new music, and the occasional organ tune-up, so we are happy to consider anything that's free.)  (:

In related to that news type news, if you are a guy, take voice lessons and get a church gig after college.  Churches and community choirs are ALWAYS looking for tenors and basses, so they often pay a few to balance out the number of women.  You don't have to be absolutely perfect for an opera solo role.  But if you are a strong sight-reader, have a good blend-y tone, and a respectable-enough voice for the occasional solo, you can get paid to go to choir practice.  Pay me to practice = my life is AWESOME.  

-Maggie the alto section leader

(In related news, I've said it before and I'll say it again.  If you have something appropriate for a small church chamber choir of mainly volunteers, a cappella or with organ or piano, send it my way.  The other choir I sing with needs 3 or 4 pieces every week for the Sunday service, so buying music gets EXPENSIVE.  Our director loves programming work by up and coming composers.  Because the music is often free.  And because it's fun to do something new and different.  I can't guarantee we'll do your piece, or when we'll do your piece, or that we'll do a totally perfect job when we do your piece, but if you've got something appropriate for a church service, send it my way.  It may sit in the library for 5 years and then suddenly make an appearance some Sunday when the text is a good match for the minister's sermon.  The music department is ALWAYS over-budget between pay for staff (that's me!), new music, and the occasional organ tune-up, so we are happy to consider anything that's free.)  (:

 

In related to that news type news, if you are a guy, take voice lessons and get a church gig after college.  Churches and community choirs are ALWAYS looking for tenors and basses, so they often pay a few to balance out the number of women.  You don't have to be absolutely perfect for an opera solo role.  But if you are a strong sight-reader, have a good blend-y tone, and a respectable-enough voice for the occasional solo, you can get paid to go to choir practice.  Pay me to practice = my life is AWESOME.  

 

-Maggie the alto section leader

I'd be interested in trying SATB writing sometime. Your feedback would be awesome on a future choral piece.

And, if I have a knack for it after several attempts, feel free to 'print 'n' sing'. :D

For all those who are following this topic… I just posted a cobbled together live recording in the "writer's block incomplete works section" because the recording quality is soooooo bad.  I just had to share.  (:

I Reallyb Like this Idea ...  ;)