Practical Use Of The Greek Scales

Can someone please explain to me why it is important to know the greek scales like for example the dorian scale, while composing in major or minor?

I never really understood the practical use of it other then giving a certain note combination from beginning to end a certain name.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

No, you do not need to know about these scales (or the modes) if you wish to compose tonal music...

I tend to disagree. 

Modal theory is a way of understanding the relationships within almost all tonal music.  Knowing how scales relate to the progression (vertical harmony) will give you a more organic way of linking the modes to the parent tonality, as well as to other tonal centres.  It's also a way to envision unique melodic colours and to provide a linear approach to counterpoint and harmony.

If you relate everything to only their Major or Minor parents, then you're missing an awful lot of things that can help make tonal music interesting. 

I wouldn't even had thought in a "non-practical" use of modal scales.

No, you do not need to know about these scales (or the modes) if you wish to compose tonal music; I don't know how you get the impression that it is important to know them to begin with.

Well, its one of the first things they tought me in theory and was now thinking about it again. So i was thinking that i maybe missed out on some basis insight in music by not really understanding the use of them.

I tend to disagree. 

 

Modal theory is a way of understanding the relationships within almost all tonal music.  Knowing how scales relate to the progression (vertical harmony) will give you a more organic way of linking the modes to the parent tonality, as well as to other tonal centres.  It's also a way to envision unique melodic colours and to provide a linear approach to counterpoint and harmony.

 

If you relate everything to only their Major or Minor parents, then you're missing an awful lot of things that can help make tonal music interesting.

But for example. Begnning a melody on the second degree in a C major composition, doesnt sound like dorian necessarily right? Because the beginning notes are also minor, and unless you go all the way up or down , you cant possibly hear the color of dorian? I dont know, this is what confuses me a little.

Begnning a melody on the second degree in a C major composition, doesnt sound like dorian necessarily right? Because the beginning notes are also minor, and unless you go all the way up or down , you cant possibly hear the color of dorian? I dont know, this is what confuses me a little.

Speaking in sweeping generalizations: this is why you vertical harmony and linear melody are supportive of each other.  The harmony (be it chordal, or contrapuntal) will help outline the overall modal colour within a tonal framework.

I know it's a bit cerebral, and this is all really just my own opinion and perspective, so feel free to explore it and come to your own conclusions ;)

What do you mean by "knowing how scales relate to the progression [...] linking the modes to the parent tonality, as well as to the other tonal centres"? Could you give some examples?

I think the trouble is that "modal" theory is too closely linked to a linear and scalar approach.  Just because a CMaj:  I - vi - ii - V - I progression all use the same notes as C Ionian, doesn't mean that you'd use the C-Major scale? Does it?  If you're hammering on C, E, G the whole time, I guarantee that it's going to get real boring, real fast.

What I'm saying is that knowing how harmony and melody are linked together through a modal approach can help outline a tonal progression or help with modulations and finding more adventurous and interesting progressions. 

Not sure how best to explain it, nor do I know specific examples... it's really just my way of conceptualizing things.  May also be why I find "strict" tonal music to be rigid and stagnant. 

[re: common tonal progressions in a single key ] Where does modality come into play in deciding which accidentals to use, here?

[re: melodically using solely the parent major scale = boring ] Yes, but that's irrelevant.

What I mean is that if you always relate things back to the tonal centre, a linear approach will be homogenous.  Yes, a progression may be firmly rooted in C-Major, but the scales to use in relation to the progression become decidedly non-C-Major.  Same notes, but used differently.  No?

[re: modal approach augments a tonal approach ] How? You keep asserting this, but you aren't explaining how you've come to this conclusion.

You can use a modal (linear) approach to melody to help outline new harmony or progressions  - knowing how Phrygian differs from Aeolian can make for interesting pivots or modulations; obscuring the differences can be useful in a multi-tonic approach.  Harmonic substitutions or obscuring tonalities can bring about unique melodic concepts through modal juxtapositions or borrowing from other related tonal centres (modally, or harmonically).

I'm just trying to get the point across that a linear modal approach is just as useful important to understand as the traditional Tonic Dominant tonal approach; the two ideas can compliment and support each other.

That's neat.

I never said thinking modally was the only way to approach anything.  Nor is it a better or worse way to look at music.  Granted, depending on the composer's approach, trying to understand something from a modal perspective may be incorrect.  

In my music, relating anything to a parent key would be wrong.  Apparently, the opposite is true for Weber. 

Doesn't much matter to me. In the end, the original question was "why is it important to know".  I was simply offering a way of incorporating modal theory into ones studies of any musics.

I have an example for you guys. In the case of the D minor key. When you play these notes in this order : E - F - Ab - Bb - C, in the context of the chord Bb. Does this "scale" imply another mode? or is it simply based on extensions of the Bb chord? Beginning on a E(11th)? up to the C(9th)? And a Ab(minor 7th?) along the way?  

I'm curious how you guys look at that. 

Thnx a lot for both of your posts. I'm going to study those examples closely.

That's going to depend on which "D-minor" you're talking about. In the 'natural minor', the "Ab" isn't going to occur naturally, so you're already implying a different tonality or mode.

To me, without any context I'd feel like that melodic line, over a Bb root might be using a Lydian Dominant. You might be trying to shift from D-minor into F-(melodic)minor.  But without any context or further root movement, it's anyone's guess.

*shrug*

I only know 3 minors, natural/harmonic/melodic. I thought Ab wasn't in any of those? 

So if I use notes with foreign notes to the key, i'm automatically implying a different tonality? 

It's quite difficult for me to see the logic of these decisions. I was thinking that the Bb, was actually a Bb7/9/11? and that these extensions make up this combination of notes?

I wrote down the passage for you but can't seem to find a way to upload it in my message.. any suggestion?

dm key example.pdf

Ok thnx, here it is. I should add, that I now see that it doesn't necessarily has to be in Bb, because there is no harmonic accompaniment during those notes. I guess I assumed it was, because the first 2 beats are Bb. 

Anyway, I like to hear what you think.