Comunal Composition V.2

YCCC

This is the YCCC, young composers comunal composition. Last time around, this idea didn't work out too well - the product turned out a complete chaos of musical ideas! This, naturally, calls for some framing:

Piece: Sonata for violin and piano, 3 mvts

Form: First movement - Sonata (with intro) form. Introduction - Exposition - Development - Recapitulation - Coda (we'll follow this loosely)

Requirement for participating: Some compositional experience (you need to know about sonata form, unifying elements, decent usage of motifs - etc)

Notation program: Finale 2006 (A collaborative work using sibelius will be started at a later date)

This'll hopefully garner some good results! I've started writing the intro in the file below, trying to keep it as accessible as possible and making sure it would be easy to develop both classically and in a more modernistic manner! Sign up, and i'll put you on the list of participants!

Violin Sonata

1 - Intro, Allegro

2 - Scherzo

3 - ?

PARTICIPANTS-FIRST MVT

Intro - Letehn, Nightengale Incorporated

Exposition - johannhowitzer

Development - cmajchord

Recapitualtion

Coda - Jeremiah Hong

PARTICIPANTS-SECOND MVT

Scherzo - Nickthoven

Trio - CaltechViolist

:P

ok, I'm in if my humble, modest talents are an addition. I'd love to add to the development...

Hehe, did it sound pompous? It wasn't meant to. :P

I've added you, now we just need someone to finish the intro and the exposition!

HOLY CRAP! This I can't possibly miss out on.

Edit: I want to do the Recapitulation, but any part is fine.

Which part of the composition do you want to work on, Jeremiah?

Edit: Well then, i've added you to the recapitulation. Wait for your turn then.

I'll do the exposition. I just hope you have some more intro coming so I'll have some more to work from!

Wait, I'm pretty good with endings. Can I do the coda instead?

Added Jonathan and assigned Jeremiah to the coda.

I'll do the exposition. I just hope you have some more intro coming so I'll have some more to work from!

I was hoping another member would finish the intro, but if there are no volunteers I shall probably be able to cook up something.

Assigned Jeremiah to the coda.

I'd like to have a crack at this. Let me see what I can do with the introduction, and see where it goes!

Wait... how long do you want the introduction to be?

How's this? Does it need to be longer? I'm not skilled at writing for piano, so this is about the best i could manage. If you consider doing a project like this with full orchestra, I'll gladly be your brass man!

Subject2-4Dmin.MID

seems like this is going to be an obvious challenge of the project. How do we keep the piece consistent and coherent? We should probably have started with the themes and then written the introduction. This intro sounds fine, but I hope johannhowitzer can draw up some themes that are compatible with the intro. Good luck man, it's all riding on you :P . No pressure.... :D.

Haha, but seriously, can't wait to see what you come up with...

Yes! :P

Firstly, Nightengale, your material was absolutely STUNNING! It went rigth home with me, that's for sure. There are some impossibillities (mostly near-impossibillities) in your piano writing though. The last measure (which is the beginning of the exposition, rigth?) particularly suffers from this, But i'm sure Jonathan can clean it up!! :D

seems like this is going to be an obvious challenge of the project. How do we keep the piece consistent and coherent? We should probably have started with the themes and then written the introduction.

I agree, but let's face the challenges - and we'll know what to do differently as we start the other movements (and eventually, other projects), eh?

Here is what I wrote in case noone would want to extend the intro (I then of course discovered it wouldn't be fitting)..

I'm saving some of the material for.. perhaps a 2nd mvt scherzo? we shall discuss..

I'd like to work on the Scherzo if possible...

You'd like to do it all yourself? Sure, But rememberblabalbalba. Whatever, i know that you know your stuff. Go ahead :P

Would you like me to change it some? I figured a decent pianist could figure it out. That's why I'm pretty bad at writing for piano! Like I said, if you choose to do an orchestral piece later on, let me know!

This intro sounds fine, but I hope johannhowitzer can draw up some themes that are compatible with the intro.

And yes, I'll try to make this a little more playable. Right now it's a nightmare, and the hard stuff should be in the violin part, since the violist has the spotlight.

That's why I asked for the exposition! :innocent: Given material like this, I can always come up with a suitable theme. You can count on me.

And yes, I'll try to make this a little more playable. Right now it's a nightmare, and the hard stuff should be in the violin part, since the violist has the spotlight.

Gosh! Is it really that bad?!

Well, the right hand's decent, but a lot of the left-hand chords are far too wide for typical concert pianists to reach comfortably.

Let's see... this seems to be in G Dorian, and if I'm not mistaken the meter's a little wrong. It might work better written in 3/4.

EDIT: I'm a little befuddled about what to do from here. The sixteenth-note figurations are so complex, and I don't want them to continue through the whole piece, it'd be too busy. I do have some thematic material in mind, but first I need to figure out how to tame this piano part a little, you guys made it kinda hyper. Seems more like a piano solo than an intro to some accompaniment.

I don't really mean to give harsh critiques, since at this point I'm not really involved in the piece. But I figure any advice I give should be taken as it is, which is an effort to better the piece as a whole, since it is a community project. I assume everyone feels the same way about criticism regarding the work on this piece.

Nightengale - The left hand is unplayable towards the end. It's not easy from the start, either. One hand spanning a 10th, major or minor is ok for slower passages, but not as you have it - it's too fast to pull off decently well, without rolling the notes. You'll hear a lot of staccato from the left hand in a performance as it's written, as the pianist will most likely be concerned with placing his(her) hand properly for the next big chord. Also, anything more than a major 10th for one hand is a no-no, unless you mean it to be rolled, and there is enough time for that technique. Here, there is no roll indication (the squiggly vertical line), and there would be little to no time on most of the chords to roll them. Like in measure 9, you have written a P12th, plus a major 10th, which makes it even more unplayable! Even if the pinky to the thumb could reach the 12th on its own, having the pointer play a 10th is mighty strenuous on its own, and they are impossible to put together (virtually). And even more impossible after coming from the lower register. (man you really went nuts! :innocent:)

Everything's pretty playable from that point forward (except for the before mentioned 10ths) until the C bar (14). Once again, there is a 12th, now a 16th note which makes it impossible. Then there's a minor 13th which is worse, I think you get the point by now. ;) But, stretching issues are now put aside for more technical aspects. The last 4 16ths you have written for the left hand are incredibly awkward, and almost impossible to pull off cleanly. A key when writing potentially awkward piano lines is to remember where the performer's fingers will have to be. For the c-g-c octave, he will have to use his pinky for the lower C and his thumb for the higher C, and either 2 or 3 (pointer or middle) for the middle G. This is because for the following chord, his best bet would be to use ring for the D, middle for the G and thumb for the Bb. He would not want to use the pinky for the D because he must hit the C right below that, so the nicest move would be for him to use ring then pinky (d to c). So now, he has his pinky on the C, and his thumb on the one higher. To make the next stretch, he automatically has to use his pinky for the Bb and his thumb for the D since they are the only two that could cleanly pull off the stretch. But, moving both outwards to the next consequtive notes can be very risky, and will require staccato at such a fast pace, which will break the flow of the line. But then you ask his thumb to keep moving up, while his ring comes in on the D, which is a very awkward position (having his thumb and ring - or even pinky - on a minor 9th requires the hand to tilt - fingers to the left - which can hurt a bit and is very awkward. So long story short, that run is very hard to pull off, if not impossible, it will make the pianist mad, and it's not entirely necessary (see following).

What you can do for your 10th stretches is remove the 5th for those that have them, and take the root note (or at least the bottom most) up the octave, generally reducing the stretch to a much easier third.

For the 12s and 13ths, just take out some of the notes, and make smaller the stretches.

And for that tricky 16th run at the end, I would suggest to take out (for the last 4) the bass notes, leaving the top voice going up and the constant G (which I would also suggest to increase in initial length, letting the player hold down the G so he doesn't need to repeat it and break the flow of the line that is moving upward.

That probably makes no sense, but if it does, I don't mean to be harsh. Just trying to help.

To illustrate further what I meant, I have edited some of your writing in the left hand, and I have posted it.

What a fun project you guys are embarking on - Jeremy (Invisionary) & I wrote a combined Oboe Concerto back in 2003, that was lots of fun! Maybe i'll post it here sometime... :innocent:

Ok, so after reviewing the comments regarding my work on the introduction, I have revamped it a bit to make it more playable by human hands. As I said before, I'm much better at dealing with orchestral patterns than writing for the piano. There are so many limitations involved in writing for a piano. These include run speed, fingerings, jumping ability, I'm just awful at guaging what is and is not playable. Perhaps I shouldn't have offered to deal with something that deals specifically with the piano part, but I think it's something I can screw up far less than anything else in the piece. Please note that Letehn wrote the first half, and I was merely working off of the cues I heard in his portion.

That being said, here is an update of the music I wrote before. I still demand the pianist to be able to reach a 10th, but I don't think that's so unreasonable. My range is a 10th or so, and I don't even play the piano. The octave bass hits are meant to be more percussive and marked than actually rung. I see this piece going along as a Violin, Piano duet. I may be wrong about that, but I think both instruments have moments to shine in this. I also see the Violin part being very weighted and eery. If this is against the wishes of those of you writing that part, than I should certainly rework the introduction. What I will probably do is wait to hear what becomes of the Exposition, and I'll write an introduction that fits that better. My appologies for my lack of training and skill in this matter.

4handig12-07-07 5.mid

There are additional things you have added that are equally as awkward and/or hard to play, and some things you have left in that I have deemed the same, so I will not bother you any further on what I consider to be idiomatic. I will accept that some people can play things others can't, and therefore I am not entitled to deem what is accurate and idiomatic over anyone else.

But I still stress that the jumping to a 10th from a single note which is much lower is bad. ;)