Top 5 Most Overrated / Underrated Composers

It's a simple question, yet it could be a nice debate topic:

In your opinion, who are the 5 most underrated and the 5 most overrated composers?

You may answer through a plain old list, but this can work better if you'd want to explain why do you consider this or that particular composer as underrated / overrated. Of course this will be controversial - that's exactly the very point of it.

For instance, this would be my (short) answer.

Top 5 underrated composers:

1) Tchaikovsky: come on, everyone knows at least one tune by him, yet he's not as much of a household name as, for example, Bach. Also, I've read a lot of critics attempting to explain away his popularity as some sort of a fluke, rather than sheer talent and craftmanship. Never mind the Nutcracker or 1812 - he wrote superb operas (The Maid of Orleans) and orchestral works such as the Danish Anthem Overture Op. 15, or the Elegy for Strings.

2) Haydn: he created the sonata form almost from scratch, wrote more symphonies than Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich combined, and yet he's always confused with / overshadowed by Mozart.

3) Frederick Delius: listen to something by him and you'll know why I'm listing him.

4) Mendelssohn: he'd be regarded as a clean-cut top tier composer if not for Wagner using racial bias to berate him. Also, he has a Mozart-like biography but no Oscar-winning biopic.

5) John Williams: everyone is quick to accuse him of ripping off Wagner, Holst or Tchaikovsky - but hey, try to imagine Star Wars, Jaws or Indiana Jones with another music. Also, he has many other worthy pieces.

Honorable mentions: Shostakovich, Mahler, Kalinnikov, Berlioz, Sibelius, Rachmaninov, Elgar, Holst, Alban Berg, Karl Orff, Camille Saint-Saëns.

Top 5 overrated composers:

1) Richard Strauss: in my view, little more than a Wagner clone writing tone poems rather than operas. And the oh-so-overplayed fanfare from Also Sprach Zarathustra...

2) Anton Bruckner: almost always placed side-by-side with Mahler with no apparent reason other than writing 9 (or 11?) large symphonies. Personally, though, I find most of Bruckner's to be long, stately borefests.

3) Hans Zimmer: Mr. D-minor Rhythmic Pattern. And that's it.

4) Mozart: yes, he's actually regarded as the Chosen One. And yes, I love a lot of his works. Yet I find this assessment to be somewhat exaggerated - Haydn could match him rather easily, not to mention Beethoven.

5) Wagner: granted, his influence is almost unescapable - but I can't recall any other composer actively campaigning to be influential and berating his competitors, except maybe Boulez. No one else can claim to have overrated himself so much.

Dishonorable mentions: John Cage (seriously, silence?), Bartok (no match for Stravinsky, despite how hard he tried), Boulez (as stated above, although I do respect him as a conductor), Vivaldi (he wrote the Four Seasons, then rewrote them about 600 more times), most of the 20th century bunch.

Done. Let the piefest begin...

Disagree with 9/10. You are correct about Haydn, though.

so because i think harmony is somewhat studied, but rhythm is not, rhythm is the area which defines how "talented" you are as a composer. so a few quick notes i have to add after listening to (a few, not much) classical music:

untalented so overrated composers:

1. beethoven. i listened to his music almost an entire day, and what a waste of time that was. if you're not paying attention to some tricks that he does, the music passes by without any notice. there are few very few pieces that are good. but when he really nails a melody line, it's the type of melody composed by a kid who's starting out at piano lessons. (see ode of joy)

2. chopin. there's nothing there.. i'm exaggerating now but, i found only one piece which interesting harmonically just for a quick study, and the melody is made out of quarter notes (if that can even be called a melody)

3. brahms. i appreciate this guy for struggling. he's no genius, but his efforts are extraordinary. harmonically he's doing nothing in his era. he's more undeveloped than pachelbel probably.

4. nothing stuck to me from listening to schubert.

talented and underrated:

1. rossini. a force of nature. perfect. harmonically he may be far behind his time like brahms or tchaikovsky.

2. mendelssohn. perfect.

3. i didn't listen to that much classical music so this list is short. i can mention a guy completely untalented which is one of my favorites: erik satie.and there are also good composers from different nationalities which are not studied worldwide but they are good. (like enescu, etc)

4. maybe Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, i remember i thought he was especially talented.

that's it. i only mentioned the underrated good ones, because bach, mozart, tchaikovsky, ravel, rachmaninoff, prokofiev, verdi, grieg, wagner, i find amazing.

It's a simple question, yet it could be a nice debate topic:

 

In your opinion, who are the 5 most underrated and the 5 most overrated composers?

 

You may answer through a plain old list, but this can work better if you'd want to explain why do you consider this or that particular composer as underrated / overrated. Of course this will be controversial - that's exactly the very point of it.

 

For instance, this would be my (short) answer.

 

Top 5 underrated composers:

 

1) Tchaikovsky: come on, everyone knows at least one tune by him, yet he's not as much of a household name as, for example, Bach. Also, I've read a lot of critics attempting to explain away his popularity as some sort of a fluke, rather than sheer talent and craftmanship.

2) Haydn: he created the sonata form almost from scratch, wrote more symphonies than Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Bruckner and Tchaikovsky combined, and yet he's always confused with / overshadowed by Mozart.

3) Frederick Delius: listen to something by him and you'll know why I'm listing him.

4) Mendelssohn: he'd be regarded as a clean-cut top tier composer if not for Wagner using racial bias to berate him.

5) John Williams: everyone is quick to accuse him of ripping off Wagner, Holst or Tchaikovsky - but hey, try to imagine Star Wars, Jaws or Indiana Jones with another music.

 

Honorable mentions: Shostakovich, Mahler, Kalinnikov, Berlioz, Sibelius, Rachmaninov, Elgar, Holst, Alban Berg, Karl Orff.

 

Top 5 overrated composers:

 

1) Richard Strauss: in my view, little more than a Wagner clone writing tone poems rather than operas. And the oh-so-overplayed fanfare from Also Sprach Zarathustra...

2) Anton Bruckner: almost always placed side-by-side with Mahler with no apparent reason than writing 9 large symphonies. Personally, though, I find most of Bruckner's to be long, stately borefests.

3) Hans Zimmer: Mr. D-minor Rhythmic Pattern. And that's it.

4) Mozart: yes, he's actually regarded as the Chosen One. And yes, I love a lot of his works. Yet I find this assessment to be somewhat exaggerated - Haydn could match him rather easily, not to mention Beethoven.

5) Wagner: granted, his influence is almost unescapable - but I can't recall any other composer actively campaigning to be influential and berating his competitors, except maybe Boulez.

 

Dishonorable mentions: John Cage (seriously, silence?), Bartok (no match for Stravinsky, despite how hard he tried), Boulez (as stated above, although I do respect him as a conductor), Vivaldi (he wrote the Four Seasons, then rewrote them about 600 more times).

 

Done. Let the piefest begin...

How can you look at Bruckner with his great symphonies, perhaps the greatest symphonist after Beethoven, as overrated? If anything he is underrated when compared to Mahler. I think Bruckner's symphonies are more introvert while Mahler's are more extrovert. But that doesn't make them any the less great! Look at the gigantic 8th symphony. Or the 9th dedicated to God Himself. What other composer reached the level to dare dedicate a work to God? I can conclude that you simply haven't understood them, or haven't given the time to try to understand them. The 4th and the 7th are also masterpieces. But I agree that it is a bit subjective. Bruckner's gigantic symphonies might be more suitable for some temperaments than others.

I agree that Wagner is overrated. But the fact that he was his own librettist and staged his own operas must be taken into consideration in the assessment of the greatness of his genius. I also agree that Mendelssohn is underrated.

While I think this is a good thread, I must say that the greatness of a composer often has nothing to do with how they are rated by people. A particular composer might be overrated at one era and underrated in another, or vice versa.

Underrated:

1. Cherubini - Fantastic composer in all genres.  His Requiem in C minor is a masterpiece and he wrote excellent chamber music as well.  Beethoven held him in very high regard which is no mean thing.

2. Bruckner - I can see how his music is not everyone's cup of tea but I definitely fall into the camp that he is the great symphonist after Beethoven.  Since Mahler has risen in popularity, suggesting a tolerance for longer works, I would hope Bruckner would get more recognition, especially since I think his music is more accessible.

3. Charles-Valentin Alkan - I consider him, not his more celebrated friend and neighbor, Chopin, the premiere piano composer of the Romantic era.  His music may be more uneven compared to the more polished Chopin, but I daresay, no other composer has ever written such music with a range of emotion and scope (a significant part of his lack of popularity is the difficulty of his works).  

Overrated, almost any late 20th century, 21st century composer.  Some examples: John Cage (most famous work is 4'33" of silence which should tell you something), Sorabji, Stockhausen

Interesting discussion and debate topic! Here are my thoughts:

Underrated:

1. Felix Mendelssohn: A lot of people are surprised when they hear he was a child prodigy like Mozart, yet Mozart gets all the special press.

2. Samuel Barber: American orchestras/public hate (maybe too strong of a word) American composers for some reason. I'm surprised Barber doesn't get more love. I like to think of him as an American Brahms.

3. John Williams....with a caveat: Sure most people know his blockbuster scores, but some of his small scaled movie work (Angela's Ashes, A.I., etc.) don't get much attention. Also, he writes a lot of concert works that many people aren't aware of.

4. Jean Sibelius: Seriously, he should be played more.

5. Alban Berg: Sure he gets a bad rep for being one of the founders of the 2nd Viennese School, but I think he's the best of the trio. He gave Schoenberg's 12-tone system a heart and emotion. 

Honorable Mentions: Ravel, Faure, Bruckner, Webern, Corigliano, J.C. Bach, Bartok, Vaughn-Williams,  and MANY MANY more

I would also like to add that John Cage is somewhat underrated....you may not like his music/philosophy, but he wrote other stuff besides 4'33".

Overrated:

1. Hans Zimmer: What Robert said.....WAYYYY overrated. He's the only one on this list who I truly think is overrated...and sorta dislike.

2. W.A. Mozart: As much as I love him, his music is a little too overplayed...and most of the times done really badly. I think his overrated-ness is due to the legend that surrounds him, which leads me to....

3. L.V. Beethoven: Sacrilege! For me his overrated-ness is less to do with this music, and more to the legend. It's really annoying to explain to the common folk that Beethoven was not born deaf, and didn't become completely deaf until later in his life. Plus the whole "immortal beloved" and tortured artist aura really puts me off. (I LOVE Beethoven though)

I must add that I think Frankie's assessment of Beethoven's music is...way off base... 

4. P. I. Tchaikovsky: It baffles me that American orchestras play 1812 overture for July 4th....even though the piece has nothing to do with America. Or how almost all the TV commercials in America play snippets of Tchaikovsky during Christmas....even though he was gay...Or how they play Romeo and Juliet for every cliche corny scene. Wonderful melodist still, and I do love most of his music. Some of it is criminally underrated. 

5. Niccolo Paganini: Not that great of a composer (sort of a one hit wonder), but a wonderful violinist, and he really influenced modern violin playing.

(Dis)-Honorable mentions: This is a toughie! Most composers I would name are only overrated due to 1 or 2 overrated compositions they might have written...doesn't mean I hate the composer: Vivaldi, Carl Orff, Danny Elfman, Rachmaninoff, Rossini, Pachelbel

BTW, I somehow forgot to list Camille Saint-Saens as grossly underrated. He was not only another child prodigy capable of matching both Mozart and Mendelssohn, but also wrote some wonderful music, possibly as colorful as Tchaikovsky's and as thoughtful as Brahms. Yet he isn't even considered a major composer by himself.

Which leads me to think that, generally speaking, French and Russian composers tend to go underrated (think Berlioz, Saint-Säens, Faure, Scriabin, Kalinnikov) whilst Austro-German composers tend to go overrated (think Wagner, R. Strauss, Mahler, Bruckner, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms). Perhaps Wagner did too much of a good job convincing everyone that German-speaking composers, provided that they weren't Jews, wrote works of more intellectual and philosophical depth (???) whilst non-Germans (including German-speaking Jews) wrote nothing but banality...

Also of note: overrated doesn't necessarily mean bad. Just sayin' ...

Also of note: overrated doesn't necessarily mean bad. Just sayin' ...

We know that. But when you judge someone as overrated, it means you judge them as less valuable than they get credit for. And if someone thinks on the contrary that they do not get enough credit for their greatness, then they think that you have failed to appreciate them for their true worth. You can say that one person's overrating is another's underrating, and vice versa.

So far, there seems to be some names popping up as either overrated or underrated - or both. We could include those in some sort of poll, so as to measure more accurately our views about them.

I'm setting it up already :musicwhistle:...

EDIT: It's now up and running: http://www.youngcomposers.com/forum/t33725/poll-overrated-or-underrated/?view=getnewpost

First thoughts/ low effort:

UNDERRATED:

-clementi

-pleyel

-cherubini

-reicha

(overshadowed by beethoven)

similarly:

-non-JS bach family

OVERRATED:

-mahler

-mendelssohn

-chopin

Underrated:

1. Kalevi Aho. Probably the finest Finnish symphonic composer ever. Yet his 16 symphonies are not widely known. Of course not all of them are first-class, but numbers 1, 5, 7, 9, 10 and 15 are truly awesome.

2. Camille Saint Saens: he is much better composer than he is usually given credit for. His piano concertos and symphonies are outstanding. His clarinet sonata is such a beauty! He is not just a composer of Animal Carnival, Dance Macabre and Samson and Dallila.

3. Gustav Holst: He is known only for Planets but he has composed lots of exciting music, especially vocal. And his music from opera The perfect fool is intriguing.

4. Levi Maadetoja: his symphonies can easily match the quality of Sibelius, especially no. 2.

5. Lucijan Marija Skerjanc: I purposedly mention this Slovene composer since he is much underrated even in my country. But his symphonies no. 4 and 5 plus some other compositions (string quartets no 3, 4 and 5) should be world-known.

Overrated:

1. Anton Bruckner: I give him credit for symphony no. 4, otherwise a boring, boring composer. Sorry.

2. John Cage: he had some intriguing ideas but he was never supposed to become a guru of modern music since he never really showed serious artistic tendencies.

3. Giuseppe Verdi and Giacomo Puccini: while they are excellent opera composers they are overdosed.

4. Gustav Mahler: funny, just as Bruckner, he was also the luckiest with his fourth symphony. The no. 1 is also ok, but he has made other symphonies way way too long. A smell of self-exhibitionism is too obvious.

5. Frederic Chopin: I am beginning to avoid concerts where is music is present. I am surprised the pianists are still so attached to him. Why not trying something else?

I'm loving that Saint-Saens is getting some love from this thread. I don't know a lot of the names being dropped here but I had noticed in general life that his doesn't get dropped quite as often as I think it should. He's wonderful really.

Underrated:

André Caplet: the one who orchestrated Le Martyre de Saint-Sébastien from Debussy. He is also the author of one of the most beautiful mass ever composed in my opinion (excerpt of one movement here , absolutely stunning :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iavb5mnQl9Y

Modest Moussorgsky : Still don't get the recognition he deserve in my opinion.

Charles Ives, still very much underatted  and underperformed in Europe.

Charles Koechlin, the author of one of the best orchestration book ever written in French (even better than the one written by Berlioz in my opinion). Koechlin was also a compositor contemporary of Debussy and Ravel, and he was indeed a great orchestrator.

Gavriil Popov: Great soviet composer, have composed a great first symphony. A little bit in the shadow of Shostakovitch.

Overrated:

Wagner: Historically, obviously an important composer. But I just can't stand a Wagner Opera. I don't like the way he wrote for voice.

Boulez. Great Conductor no doubt. But I don't think his work as a composer will really stand the test of time. It's my humble opinion of course.

Britten. A bit bland in my opinion.

Vivaldi. 

Verdi.

Overrated: The legend and myth around Beethoven is verging on overshadowing the worth of his music. He is obviously one of history's greatest composers and one of my favorites, but he is treated almost as a god in the world of music, which I think is less than ideal. Also, I wholeheartedly agree on Zimmer!

Underrated: I think Rimsky-Korsakov deserves more fame than he has. He's also underplayed compared with his contemporaries IMO. Something about his music is so charming and captivating to me, and I learned a lot from his book on orchestration.

Beethoven is God!  Blasphemy to say otherwise!

I'm just half-kidding..... maybe a quarter-kidding.

Top 3 Overrated: 

1. Johann Sebastian Bach                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 I might be having my funeral in the next few days for this but i don't find this dude interesting at all; his music, for me, is overly-complex and too dense.

2. Ludwig van Beethoven                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   Beethoven is a composer i actively listen to so i don't dislike him at all, but i find some of his music to be a bit too heavy and dark expect for a few light pieces here there of course. I prefer some of his earlier sonatas for this very reason.

3. Arnold Schoenberg                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Atonal "music" is not music to my ears (sorry if i offended anybody with that.)

Top 3 underrated:

1. Franz Liszt                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Liszt one of the few people who had really mastered the piano, hence he is one of my favorite composers. I think he is quite underrated in comparison to other romantic composers like Beethoven and Frederic Chopin. My favorite works by him are the Hungarian Rhapsodies, the Paganini etudes and the Transcendental etudes (Some people complain about these etudes being too noisy but in my eyes they are masterpieces, every single one of them).

2. Charles-Valentin Alkan                                                                                                                                                                                                         Even more underrated than Franz Liszt is the infamous Alkan with his nearly-impossible to play pieces, in fact i was quite surprised when i first heard his music it was like mindblowing. 

3. Antonio Salieri                                                                                                                                                                                                              Popular as the murderer of Mozart in the movie Amadeus (great movie!) there are few that actually listen to his music today, which is kind of sad since Salieri's music sounds quite nice and elegant, especially his symphonies and operas (not a big fan of them but yeah) 

EDIT years later: I strongly disagree with what I wrote here now. Bach has become one of my favorites and my opinion on "atonal" music is far more permissive than before. Also, the writing is pretty wonky, though I am not sure that has changed over the years.

On 1/20/2016 at 7:19 AM, Frankie Detergnt said:

1. beethoven. i listened to his music almost an entire day, and what a waste of time that was. if you're not paying attention to some tricks that he does, the music passes by without any notice. there are few very few pieces that are good. but when he really nails a melody line, it's the type of melody composed by a kid who's starting out at piano lessons. (see ode of joy)

Well, see, the Ode to Joy theme, slightly altered, is actually one of the fugue subjects in a double fugue that appears toward the end of the movement, so it is absolutely not the type of melody composed by a kid who's starting out at piano lessons, but the type of melody carefully crafted by a master composer.

https://youtu.be/XFRfzCiVx_Y?t=962 (16:03)

On 1/20/2016 at 7:19 AM, Frankie Detergnt said:

2. chopin. there's nothing there.. i'm exaggerating now but, i found only one piece which interesting harmonically just for a quick study, and the melody is made out of quarter notes (if that can even be called a melody)

Look harder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVqlIjwP1l8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QT7ITv9Ecs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75x6DncZDgI

That's strange, considering his reputation as a master contrapuntalist and harmonist. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EIE78D0m1g

Then I would say you have "Unfinished" business:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mnrHf7p0jM

My short answer answer to this question is:

top 5 underrated

1. Samuel Barber

2. Alexander Scriabin

3. Camille Saint Saens 

4. Aram Khachaturian 

5. Marjan Mozetich 

Honorable Mentions: Vincent d'Indy, Edward Grieg, Aaron Copland, Eric Whitacre, Jules Massanet, Alberto Ginastera,  

top 5 overrated

1. Mozart

2. Berlioz

3. Brahms

4. Schoenberg 

5. Elgar

Honorable Mentions: Haydn, Vivaldi, Johann Strauss, Phillip Glass, Charles Ives, John Cage, George Crumb, John Corigliano

And I just want to mention my favorite newer composers who are still writing and producing and to my opinion don't get enough credit for what I believe to be continuing classical music in the write vein.

Those would be:

1. Adam Schoenberg

2. Michael Gandolfi 

3. Christopher Theofanidis 

4. John Adams

5. Jennifer Higdon

6. Robert Aldridge 

7. Jonathan Leshnoff 

These comments are funny. I don't know if they're supposed to be, or sarcastic, or what. But not liking Bach? That's like a child not loving his father. It's like an aviator dismissing the Wright Brothers.

Underrated:
1. Respighi, Ottorino
2. Lutoslawski, Witold
3. Barber, Samuel
4. Wertheim, Rosy
5. Puccini, Giacomo

Overrated:
1. Mozart, W.A.
2. Chopin, Frederic
3. Liszt, Franz
4. Williams, John
5. Bach, J. S. (only kind of mostly because of the cello suites)

2 hours ago, Ken320 said:

These comments are funny. I don't know if they're supposed to be, or sarcastic, or what. But not liking Bach? That's like a child not loving his father. It's like an aviator dismissing the Wright Brothers.

 

You can appreciate a composer's contribution to the art while still not liking their music directly. For example, Chopin's stylistic choices and use of chromatics are techniques still used to this day, but I personally don't care much for his work.

All in all that raises the question of what the important part of being composer is and (not or) what our personal preferences are. The problem is this topic seems to have us lightly patting the topic and not tackling it directly. I love works from Crumb, Penderecki, and Lutoslawski for how aleatoric they are, and think the styles they implement into their work are done exceedingly well, but another person may not. Opinions, opinions, all day long...

Underrated:
1. Charles Valentin Alkan
2. Jan Václav Voříšek
3. Alexander Fliarkovsky
4. Antonio Caldara
5. Gerald Finzi

Overrated:
1. W.A. Mozart
2. Bela Bartok
3. Richard Wagner
4. Tchaikovsky
5. Stravinsky

In my opinion Kapustin is a really innovative composer who is highly underrated. His works are easy to understand and comprehend and yet his music is highly innovative and every work is fresh. He has taken fugues to a new level and dimension. 

Overrated:

1. Schoenberg

2. All of Schoenberg's cronies

3. Bach

4. Hans Zimmer

5. Mahler

Underrated

1. John Powell

2. Piotr Musial

3. Tchaikovsky 

4. John Debney

5. Mike Patti