Learning Violin in order to improve composition?

Hello everybody,

As a wind player, I can easily compose compositions for wind instruments, because I know how they are played and I have experience with playing saxophone, which is actually a combination of all woodwinds. My woodwind writing is fluent and almost without any mistakes. Orchestration for woodwinds is very easy for me.

Writing for the string family is a different story, because I have never played one of the string familiy members nor do I have any friends who play such an instrument. I realize that reading books and videos on the internet about how to write for string instruments will not help me very much. String writing is a very different concept than wind writing and because I want to become familiar with the string family and in order to write high quality string music, I am thinking about taking lessons with a violin teacher.

Do you have any advice for me? Is it worth learning the Violin (or one of the other string members) in order to understand the instrument and how to write for it? The string instruments are next to the piano some of the most important instruments in (classical) composition.

I am looking forward to your response!

Maarten

It's always worth learning something new!  Just be aware that the music you will be capable of playing, as a beginning student, will probably have little to do with the more advanced music you will be interested in composing.  Since you can already read music and have good dexterity and musicality from playing wind instruments, you may learn a little faster than other beginning students, but probably only a little.  This will be a long-term learning project.  On the other hand, even in the very beginning, having taken some lessons will give you better access to good violinists, and you can ask them for their honest opinion of your scores, and will be better able to understand their comments.  And they are more likely to give you careful, detailed feedback if they know you are taking lessons and are serious about composing for strings.  Wanting to do this is a good learning opportunity, but it's also a mark of your dedication to composing.  You are taking the time to think about where there are gaps in your musical knowledge and trying to fill them.  That's definitely a good mindset for a composer.  (:

54 minutes ago, pateceramics said:

Wanting to do this is a good learning opportunity, but it's also a mark of your dedication to composing.  You are taking the time to think about where there are gaps in your musical knowledge and trying to fill them.  That's definitely a good mindset for a composer.  (:

 

Thank you very much! This is a great compliment to me! 

I have contacted a violinist, who is an Italian person with the greatest name (haha), to have a trial lesson, in which we will discuss IF the violin is an instrument for me and what the plans will be: just a few lessons or rather months or forever? I will let you know how it turned out.

What seems a frustating issue is that I have to begin at the very start. So I can read very difficult music and play it on the saxophone, but not on the violin.

3 hours ago, ilv said:

I have to admit that your writing for strings, as I can see with what I've reviewed, seems pretty good. The hardest part, I'd say, seems to be double stop rules.

 

Thank you! What I see as the problem is that I don't dare to write difficult or more advanced passages for string instruments, because I don't know very much about what is possible and what is not. I try to only write music of which I am completely sure that it is possible.

There is a whole generation of composers now, who don't play instruments..  I certainly think study of the families of instruments, knowing what the average, above average string player can do is good..  So is learning to play the instrument..

I do pop music.. When I was a teenager.  (1960'sI learnt bass guitar, guitar, kids, drums, even a few other assorted instruments. I learned each instrument, well enough to play the part I needed (or at least to make a decent 'sketch' to show the band..  

With the advancement in samples, libraries, building block libraries with riffs included.  There are many paths to take.. A lot of libraries won't play parts that real instruments can't do..

(out of range, to fast for a slow attack instrument, etc.) There are places where you can research if a part you write is actually playable.. (sorry forget the site).  Certainly some here can answer that..  I had a cello player friend.. and I would often play him things, I'd done with cello or string libraries, and he would comment what could and couldn't be done.. 

Obviously one does not have the time to be a 'Master' of all things related to music..  Each aspect is in itself a full time job..  If you can afford and like the string lessons, go for it.. It will give you a better understanding, and you might have fun and get a lot of satisfaction. 

6 hours ago, markstyles said:

There is a whole generation of composers now, who don't play instruments..  I certainly think study of the families of instruments, knowing what the average, above average string player can do is good..  So is learning to play the instrument..

I do pop music.. When I was a teenager.  (1960'sI learnt bass guitar, guitar, kids, drums, even a few other assorted instruments. I learned each instrument, well enough to play the part I needed (or at least to make a decent 'sketch' to show the band..  

With the advancement in samples, libraries, building block libraries with riffs included.  There are many paths to take.. A lot of libraries won't play parts that real instruments can't do..

(out of range, to fast for a slow attack instrument, etc.) There are places where you can research if a part you write is actually playable.. (sorry forget the site).  Certainly some here can answer that..  I had a cello player friend.. and I would often play him things, I'd done with cello or string libraries, and he would comment what could and couldn't be done.. 

Obviously one does not have the time to be a 'Master' of all things related to music..  Each aspect is in itself a full time job..  If you can afford and like the string lessons, go for it.. It will give you a better understanding, and you might have fun and get a lot of satisfaction. 

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion!

@pateceramics

I promised to tell you how it turned out.
I decided to not take violin lessons upon recommendation of my music teacher. He namely said that the violin lessons will not be as valuable as I have in my mind.
With regard to my already advanced level of composing, I would according to him also need to play advanced music to understand how to write for the violin.
This process will, however, take several years.

Instead, he advised me to visit many rehearsals of professional orchestras in the country.

Hi 

My musical knowledge is, let's say, 50% self-taught, the other half I've taken courses, etc...

I think orchestration is one of the highest desired goals, for most of us. But I also think it's hard to write properly for any instruments.

I've made progressions studying (apart from the piano, my natural instrument), the harp, the clarinets, the saxophones, etc...

What I'd like to say is that there is a difference:

1. Writing for an instrument as part of a set, orchestra, etc...

2. Writing for it as soloist.

I think we should begin with #1. Almost of us have an instrument we know better, and the tendency is to use it with an important role.

So, my objective is to study the families of instruments (strings, brass, etc...) in order to be able to use it in a background. I mean: not to write impossible things, but make them interesting.

And, if I am deeply interested in an instrument, I go on further with the study (as I'm doing with the harp).

I also think that trying to write difficult parts when we are not sure, is a mistake. That's why I leave double (or triple) strops in strings for a solo. It doesn't make sense writing virtuoso parts for the strings in the orchestra. An interesting way to improve is writing for string quartet, because they are soloists.

Even Brahms took advice from a profesional violin virtuoso (Joseph Joachim) to write the solo part in his Concerto for violin and Orchestra op. 77.

@Maarten Bauer

hmm, I think I have the same problem with Wind music! 
Despite the fact that I am not a pro in composing, I have learnt Violin for 10 years and I have some experience in orchestras. So I may leave a comment here and hopefully that could help you:D

One amazing aspect of string music is the variety of bowing techniques, which gives different degrees of articulation of the notes. Usually, string players will adopt a specific set of bow techniques at a certain tempo. For example, in fast passages, say few lines of 16th notes, we may play the notes in Spiccato and Sautillé, i.e. to play notes by bouncing the bow off the string, in order to give more clear and articulated presentations of the passages. In contrary, one may use slurs to make a sentence more connected. Other than articulation, Pizzicato, Ponticello, col legno are unique techniques for string instruments. String harmonics are good too. Especially for solo string excerpts, using such (bowing) techniques can really provide some texture and characters. 

However, in my humble opinion and from my personal experience, it may take years to get familiar with the above techniques, which is not cost-effective if you aim to apply those techniques and write good string pieces in short term. But if you really want to get a glimpse of those techniques, instead of learning on your own, I would suggest watching Youtube demo videos. I would say YT channels such as BarnesandMullinsUK are a good example of that. Of course, it is always good to learn a new musical instrument to know the actual way of playing. For instance, it is technically impossible to slur cross string. Knowing such problems can help you to write the string music in a playable manner (in case you don't want to consult your string player friend too often). 

Fingering is also something you may want to know deeper about. It is possible to produce a note at the same pitch but with different fingerings/ on different strings, on a string instrument.

Despite the same pitch, they have different tone colours. Playing notes on A and E strings are usually brighter than doing so on the D or G strings. Other than tone colours, alternative fingerings may sometimes help the player to overcome technical difficulties. For example, it is impossible to slur from B3 (on G-string, the lowest string) to  B4 (on A-string, the second highest string)  across the D-string, but it is feasible to do so by shifting the fingering upwards along the G-string. But as mentioned before, it may imply the change of tone colours when you change the fingering. And that's the time you may need some string background to experiment with the fingerings, when you write the melodies.

3 hours ago, HoYin Cheung said:

@Maarten Bauer

hmm, I think I have the same problem with Wind music! 
Despite the fact that I am not a pro in composing, I have learnt Violin for 10 years and I have some experience in orchestras. So I may leave a comment here and hopefully that could help you:D

One amazing aspect of string music is the variety of bowing techniques, which gives different degrees of articulation of the notes. Usually, string players will adopt a specific set of bow techniques at a certain tempo. For example, in fast passages, say few lines of 16th notes, we may play the notes in Spiccato and Sautillé, i.e. to play notes by bouncing the bow off the string, in order to give more clear and articulated presentations of the passages. In contrary, one may use slurs to make a sentence more connected. Other than articulation, Pizzicato, Ponticello, col legno are unique techniques for string instruments. String harmonics are good too. Especially for solo string excerpts, using such (bowing) techniques can really provide some texture and characters. 

However, in my humble opinion and from my personal experience, it may take years to get familiar with the above techniques, which is not cost-effective if you aim to apply those techniques and write good string pieces in short term. But if you really want to get a glimpse of those techniques, instead of learning on your own, I would suggest watching Youtube demo videos. I would say YT channels such as BarnesandMullinsUK are a good example of that. Of course, it is always good to learn a new musical instrument to know the actual way of playing. For instance, it is technically impossible to slur cross string. Knowing such problems can help you to write the string music in a playable manner (in case you don't want to consult your string player friend too often). 

Fingering is also something you may want to know deeper about. It is possible to produce a note at the same pitch but with different fingerings/ on different strings, on a string instrument.

Despite the same pitch, they have different tone colours. Playing notes on A and E strings are usually brighter than doing so on the D or G strings. Other than tone colours, alternative fingerings may sometimes help the player to overcome technical difficulties. For example, it is impossible to slur from B3 (on G-string, the lowest string) to  B4 (on A-string, the second highest string)  across the D-string, but it is feasible to do so by shifting the fingering upwards along the G-string. But as mentioned before, it may imply the change of tone colours when you change the fingering. And that's the time you may need some string background to experiment with the fingerings, when you write the melodies.

 

 

Thank you very much! This information is very useful!