Analyse this!

I have a cheap keyboard with songs recorded in...

We can see what chords are played and the melody lines...one of them is quite bizarre.

Here are the chords:

D - Eb - C - D

C - BbM7- Am7 - Gm7 - FM7 - EbM7 - FM7 - Em7

D - C - D - C - D

The melody is ALWAYS almost always made up of the C scale tones (no chromatics at all).

I guess that they just harmonize the melody with no care to tonality, but the song is quite good.

If it is tonal, then I think it would be in key of G...and being a mixolydian piece (C and D chords)

What do you think?

If it doesn't fit well into one chord, then it's probably just polytonic - but since you can break it down into chords, it is still very much tonal. Can you post the recording?

I'm making a midi ...should help

Here it is.

It's only an outline, chords and melody...it's sound better with all instruments and correctly voiced.

Duetto per 2 chitarre.sib

(And there's a end I'm too lazy to write...only 4-5 other simple bars)

Midi.mid

Since no one answers, let's clarify the questions:

1. Is there a tonality? (if yes, what is it?)

2. Can I analyze it with roman numerals system or not?

Since no one answers, let's clarify the questions:

1. Is there a tonality? (if yes, what is it?)

2. Can I analyze it with roman numerals system or not?

Is there a tonality? - Yes - you have what could be considered a few 'keys of the moment' and perhaps more than a few moments of indeterminate harmony. For instance your first four chords are all major chords. Which is the key? At first one might suspect that you have started on a I chord, which would place us in D. This is not an unreasonable expectation because you immediately go to what would not be considered unusual with a bII chord. BUT - then you throw the ear off by going to a C chord and STAYING there for an extra measure - this has the effect of changing the 'key of the moment. The next few measures are spent floating back and forth between C and D somewhat haphazzardly. Not D7, which could be seen as an extended dominant chord. So now the ear has to determine - are we in D or C? Four major chords - no consistent harmonic resolution - no melodic cadences to suggest an established key.

Possibly one could argue that you are in F for a few measures with your changes starting at Bbmajor7:

IVmajor7 IIIminor7 IIminor7 Imajor7 bVIImajor7 (Ebmajor7 - a modal interchange chord) Imajor7 - but then you modulate into C major from there in somewhat awkward fashion. (BTW, why switch to jazz chords from triads in the middle of the peice?) And if you are in F, by the time the ear might suspect this to be the case, you have run off and played an Eminor7th chord - possibly leading us back to C - but by then - who knows? - or cares? - by this point you have rambled enough that the ear gives up trying to decide these things. I'm not trying to be funny here. This is actually what happens when you don't ESTABLISH a tonal center.

What you have written is VERY tonal. Every measure can be analysed as a basic root position triad or jazz chord, voiced in a standard stack of thirds, and your melodies over these changes adhear to standard chord scale expectations. Your harmony is just not highly functional.

...

The key is D major.

There are a lot of jazz influences, but this is still highly tonal and fairly easy to label. I, bII, bVII, I. bVII, bVImaj7, v7, bIIImaj7, bIImaj7, bIIImaj7, ii7, I, bVII, I, bVII, etc.

It's just that this is a work of the contemporary era, where a lot of the general rules of theory have been set aside for new ideas. The fact that 7 is not only flat in this major key, but major and not diminished, is unusual to traditional music. So it defies some of the rules laid down.

But! It is still very functional harmony! And I'm not understanding what Leightwing was saying - I'm not hearing any change in key at all...it's all still D major, although borrowing quite a bit from it's aeolian and even phrygian counterparts.

I have a cheap keyboard with songs recorded in...

We can see what chords are played and the melody lines...one of them is quite bizarre.

Here are the chords:

D - Eb - C - D

C - BbM7- Am7 - Gm7 - FM7 - EbM7 - FM7 - Em7

D - C - D - C - D

The melody is ALWAYS almost always made up of the C scale tones (no chromatics at all).

I guess that they just harmonize the melody with no care to tonality, but the song is quite good.

If it is tonal, then I think it would be in key of G...and being a mixolydian piece (C and D chords)

What do you think?

D-Eb-C-D = No tonal center established

C-Bb-Am7-Gm7-FM7 = key of F - although even though all these chords taken together belong to the F key and no other, I wouldn't call it "tonal". Tonal derives from the word "tonic". The Tonic chord is heard only once and at the end. If you play with this section of the melody a bit, make the last chord an F (not FM7) -and rest the highest voice on an F - it definately sounds like "home" for this section.

EbM7-FM7-Em7 = no tonal center established.

D - C - D - C - D = no tonal center established. Even though chords C and D belong to the key of G exclusively, G is not heard, ie "the tonic" - so it cannot be said to be tonal.

Tonal music requires a rather regular hearing of the tonic chord along with other chords that are exclusive to the key. Of course, the tonality can change - briefly or sustained - but again, for the new tonality, the previous sentence applies.

I-V Do not establish the I tonality. Only I and V7 do if it is to be established in 2 (non extended) chords. Or I and vii.

The reason is that C-G (I,V) are in both the keys of C and G. An F chord needs to be heard to confirm the C key, or a D chord to confirm the G key.

The key is D major.

There are a lot of jazz influences, but this is still highly tonal and fairly easy to label. I, bII, bVII, I. bVII, bVImaj7, v7, bIIImaj7, bIImaj7, bIIImaj7, ii7, I, bVII, I, bVII, etc.

It's just that this is a work of the contemporary era, where a lot of the general rules of theory have been set aside for new ideas. The fact that 7 is not only flat in this major key, but major and not diminished, is unusual to traditional music. So it defies some of the rules laid down.[/b]

These chords are hardly unusual when listened to in a jazz/pop context - and that is what we have here. The nature of the melody, parrallel voicings, and standard chords used all smell of very basic jazz and pop sensibilities. - Extending your above logic, I could take just about any series of chords and relate them to any key using extended or interpolated harmonic theories. Just because you can label it doesn't mean that's the way the ear hears it.

But! It is still very functional harmony! And I'm not understanding what Leightwing was saying - I'm not hearing any change in key at all...it's all still D major, although borrowing quite a bit from it's aeolian and even phrygian counterparts.

[/b]

Wow. - our ears are VERY different. If you can listen to Bbmajor7 Amin7 Gmin7 Fmaj7 Ebmaj7 (chords that when listened to in sequence very easily and intuitively scream "KEY OF F") spread out over 9 or ten measures and still be listening in D major, you have a leg up on me. Do you think the better than average ear can listen to that sequence and hear it in D? They'd have to hear a Vminor7 chord followed by a IVminor7 chord, all sandwiched in between modal interchange chords (chords borrowed from aolian and phrygian as you would have it), without batting an eye. My training has led me to believe that it doesn't take too long for a "key of the moment" to be established. This has been confirmed by my ear. Take a look at a jazz tune like "All The Things You Are" - Every Fake book in the world has it notated in one key throughout the piece. Do you think that the tonal center of the piece is always in that key? I can do an analysis that can make it look so, but my ears will never believe it.

Extensive use of modal interchange is not the end all in what constitutes valid functional harmonic flow. If anything, these types of analysis hint at the possibility of modulation. And it doesn't take long for the ear to buy into the new key of the moment that these chords suggest. Additionally, I would argue that in this style, harmonic rhthyms and even melodic cadences come into play when determining the way the ear actually hears functionality.

Paul - I think our analysis are very similar, if not identical in places - although I don't know that I agree entirely with your final argument re: the need of a V7 or vii to establish tonality. Look at a Pop song such as Van Morison's Moondance and you can see that a tonal center can be established long before you ever hear a leading tone. Once again, harmonic rhythyms and melodic phrasings can play a role in these things.

It's just a bunch of random chords. nothing more... :)

It's just a bunch of random chords. nothing more... :)

You are a funny person, Nightfly. ;)

The Voting so Far:

Functional -- 1

Non-(or mostly non)-Functional - 2

Random - 1

I agree with Nickthoven that this is still very functional harmony. I would say that the key is D Major as well.

The first movement of my Dixit Dominus uses a similar concept and one could still use roman numerals to analyze it. These chords are standard pop type chord progressions as was already stated. But, it you decide to analyze it strictly from a traditional point of view you could argue that the progressions are due to "modal interchange".

Votes ! :

Functional -- 2

Non-(or mostly non)-Functional - 2

Random - 1

Ok - update:

Functional -- 2

Non-(or mostly non)-Functional - 2

Random - 1

This is getting good.

Paul - I think our analysis are very similar, if not identical in places - although I don't know that I agree entirely with your final argument re: the need of a V7 or vii to establish tonality. Look at a Pop song such as Van Morison's Moondance and you can see that a tonal center can be established long before you ever hear a leading tone. Once again, harmonic rhythyms and melodic phrasings can play a role in these things.

()=beats

I downloaded a midi of Moondance. First few bars are base line G(1,2) A(3), D(4)

over chords Gm7(1) Am7(inverted)(2.5)

I haven't looked at much of it, but the first few bars appear to be in F(leading tone E part of Am7chord), but in the Dorian mode. I would class this as modal, not tonal - the base line taken by itself suggests G with the Dominant to tonic progression (D-G) - but the chords don't indicate G - they indicate the Dorian mode of F. Could be mistaken here - but that's what it looks like to me.

In as far as needing a V7 or vii followed by or preceeded by I - I was talking only about in a 2 chord context. If these three chords are played initially - G,D,C - then C is not going to feel like "home" unless a D minor chord, and F chord, the diminished chord on the leading note or some part of the melody hits that natural subdominant note. Until then, C won't feel like home. A perfect cadence (without the 7th) with a C in the top and a C in the base won't feel like the melody or phrase is "finished"....without that natural subdominant in there somewhere before.

I agree with Nickthoven that this is still very functional harmony. I would say that the key is D Major as well.

The first movement of my Dixit Dominus uses a similar concept and one could still use roman numerals to analyze it. These chords are standard pop type chord progressions as was already stated. But, it you decide to analyze it strictly from a traditional point of view you could argue that the progressions are due to "modal interchange".

Why would you chose to analyze tune that derives its harmonic language from jazz with a traditional harmonic point of view? I understand how to do it - and I understand it can be done. Its all well and good that you can put Roman Numerals on the paper - (we do it in jazz too) - but what do your EARS say, majesty? Are you hearing those 10 measures I referenced earlier - in the key of D? Was the Key of D that clearly established in your head? Just because it's the first chord doesn't do it for me. Forget about what you see on paper. Close your eyes and listen to the midi.

Heck, let's analyse it in F just for fun - using jazz theory, which is the appropriate theory because it considers the way it is heard with respect to the style.

D to Eb = the D is an approach chord to bVII major 7 (or think D7 - which is a tritone substitute for Ab7 - the V of bVImaj7)

C = V chord - DIATONIC to the key

D = V/II - the dominant of the Supertonic. (or once again, think D7 in the sense described above)

C = V - DIATONIC (and we sit here for a looong time)

then: IVmaj7 IIIminor7 IIminor7 Imajor7 bVII7 Imajor7 -- a very clear, somewhat common, and almost completely DIATONIC progression in F - Damn hard to hear in D, especially when the bass motion is step-wise.

Emin7 = modal interchange from lydian

C = V - DIATONIC.

Hey, It works for me on paper - In fact, I'd have to say, with a gun to my head I can force myself hear this in F for more measures than I can hear it in D. That doesn't mean I think it's in F. It isn't - Its tonal centers are not well enough ESTABLISHED.

My ears do tell me key of D. I'm saying that the chords are standard in pop/jazz even gospel and that you don't usually see/hear them in a traditional arrangement. I'm not saying that the harmony is derived from jazz and that one should choose to analyze it in a traditional sense. Its just that from a traditional standpoint one would be tempted to say that there is no tonal center, or that a traditional means of analysis will not suffice.

For me its not because D is the first chord but its how the other chords react with each other before returning to the D Major chord. I will agree that it does seem to feel like it shifts to F Major. The descending bass line in combination with the parallel harmonies are a strong argument for the key of F Major but unless I'm mistaken there is a return to the D major chord. So for me, the placement of the D Major chord seems to suggest that the piece is lending itself to the key of D as its base for the harmonic set up that plays on our ears.

I have no argument if one hears and analyzes it in F major. I think for me its a matter of what I'm used to hearing, seeing and doing musically that makes me gravitate to D major. To me that makes it more interesting and allows for more interesting possibilities to play on the ears. Maybe that's why I'm choosing D Major.

I would say that the F major section does sound more like a modulation with a tendency to go back to D Major. I also think if the example were a little longer we might be able to look into it deeper.

But, I definitely see what you are saying, leightwing. I think this might be one of those difference of opinion things, or maybe I'm wrong.

My ears Still tells me its bunch of random chords

Update:

Functional -- 2

Non-(or mostly non)-Functional - 2

Random - 1

Functional in an alternate universe - 1 (Chris)

Functional in an alternate universe

LOL !!