How essential are musical forms to writing music?

Interesting thread.  @SSC, you're amazingly knowledgeable, and more importantly, you're articulate with it.  I think you've helped Ali a lot here.  

On 2/9/2019 at 11:16 PM, SSC said:

Think in terms of Beethoven's economy of material, how his sonatas are mostly the same stuff repeated over and over in different ways, joined by a loose arc structure

By the way, by this arc form in Beethoven's sonatas, you mean that he wrote a development on a theme, then wrote another development on that theme, and then repeated the first development?

37 minutes ago, Ali Jafari said:

By the way, by this arc form in Beethoven's sonatas, you mean that he wrote a development on a theme, then wrote another development on that theme, and then repeated the first development?

 

So, the main "Sonata" type form used in the first movements works like this:

Exposition -> Development -> Reprise. It's a long-form A-B-A, but within each segment you can have an arc form on its own. For example, expositions have 2 themes with a bridge and often a repetition, so that's a mini- ABA form right there in the exposition. You can do the same for the end at the reprise too. Development parts are much more free-form, and they depend greatly on composer taste. Usually the imply modulations and so on, but beyond that it's hard to generalize.

Yes, I know about the outline of the sonata form and also about the exposition, my question is only about using an arc form in the middle of the development section. Also, would you please tell me if someone like Beethoven used the same procedure to develop his themes in his different works? Is it really some sort of procedure or is it mostly some kind of imaginative power?

7 minutes ago, Ali Jafari said:

Yes, I know about the outline of the sonata form and also about the exposition, my question is only about using an arc form in the middle of the development section. Also, would you please tell me if someone like Beethoven used the same procedure to develop his themes in his different works? Is it really some sort of procedure or is it mostly some kind of imaginative power?

I don't know really, we'd have to ask him. But I think it's a procedure, like making Fugue subjects. Once he probably figure out a theme motive he liked, he could then figure out what kind of theme it would be and the general proportions. The typical proportions are 8(usually 4+4) measures and 16 measures, but this can change depending on the composer and the time period.

You can also ask me about specific examples, if you have anything in specific in mind.

You know, right now I have this weird fear of studying all these other books about form and analyzing some of the masterworks and still being unable to develop my themes and write longer works.

2 hours ago, Ali Jafari said:

You know, right now I have this weird fear of studying all these other books about form and analyzing some of the masterworks and still being unable to develop my themes and write longer works.

Studying and composing are two different things really, so don't worry about that. If anything, letting stuff influence you at the start is a good idea and kind of natural for everyone.

I know, but shouldn't studying help composing ?

3 minutes ago, Ali Jafari said:

I know, but doesn't studying help composing ?

 

It can help you, but if you want to get "better" at composing, you need to actually compose. Studying history and all this stuff is good and all, but you need to be composing every day, even if just exercises.

Well I actually compose four-part contrapuntal exercises almost everyday, but they are very short. I still think there's still a lot of stuff that I don't know. For example, as I mentioned earlier, there are almost 20 pages on Schoenberg's third book only about motives, and he's illustrated a lot of examples too. I haven't studied that book yet but I definitely think there's a lot to learn just in that book. Also, I haven't analyzed any of the masterworks yet.

Was useful to read, tnx. I'm just an amateur but want to become a pro musician one day

I think musical forms are the basis for writing music. When I was in college, I played the piano. For this little experience, I have. If you need a writing essay service like this PapersOwl UK, for writing an essay on music, then I think the service offered by me will suit you, I have been using its services for a long time and it never let me down.

 

 

 

On 5/10/2019 at 3:40 PM, Madeline Newson said:

I think musical forms are the basis for writing music. When I was in college, I played the piano. For this little experience, I have. If you need a writing essay service like this PapersOwl UK, for writing an essay on music, then I think the service offered by me will suit you, I have been using its services for a long time and it never let me down.

 

I started learning to play piano on this site.