Advice on writing a piano concerto?

I am a pianist so I know how to make a piano piece sound good. And writing a piano concerto has always been one of my dreams as a composer. Now I know the typical first movement form of a concerto. It is basically a modified sonata form with 2 expositions instead of just 1. One for the orchestra without the soloist and one where the concentration is on the soloist. Other than that, it is like a typical symphonic movement. Now I have been given quite a bit of advice on writing symphonies. One of the pieces of advice that I was given was to write a concerto first because the orchestra in a concerto is smaller. Another was to basically figure out a motif and then go all Beethoven's 5th on it, basing the entire symphony on that 1 motif, like Beethoven did with his 5th symphony.

But I was wondering, since I am a pianist and more familiar with composing for piano, should I write the piano exposition first and then the orchestral exposition for my first piano concerto? Or should I stick to the standard orchestra first, then soloist?

Try everything. Just write music instead of thinking too much about it. There's no real "rule" how you should write a piano concerto, unless you're specifically copying someone.

22 hours ago, SSC said:

Try everything

That's it really. Listen to other concertos and see what they do.

The sonata form with double exposition was most commonly used in the Classical period. Remember that this form was laid out hundreds of years ago, so you don't have to stick to it. My most commonly used form for a concerto is a sonata form, with an altered recapitulation and a long coda (which includes the cadenza.)

If you are a pianist, then your piano writing will be good, so this will help you come up with ideas.

On 5/19/2019 at 11:23 PM, caters said:

Now I have been given quite a bit of advice on writing symphonies. One of the pieces of advice that I was given was to write a concerto first because the orchestra in a concerto is smaller.

I'm not quite sure about this. The concerto is based around contrast, and the symphony around unity. The point about the orchestra being smaller can, in some cases, be valid though.

Good luck with both your concerto and your symphony!

I recently completed a flute concerto that will be premiering in the fall. A few things I can share off the top of my head:

• I think it's unwise to write the piano part and orchestral part as two separate entities/two separate sessions. One thing I learned while writing was that you need to give the soloist time to breathe. Both in the literal sense, and also from the standpoint of the audience.  The ear tires from listening to the same type of sound after awhile, so the best way to keep the ear interested is to change up the sound. When you listen to great concertos (of any instrument), there will be sections heavy on the solist, sections where the soloist and orchestra play together as a "unit", and then purely orchestral sections. Those breaks are important, for everyone involved.
• Write to the strengths of your soloist. If it's you, then write to your own strengths! My solist has a very good technical capacity, and also has a very strong tone in the lower register, so I was sure to make it technically challenging and wasn't afraid to write some passages down low. Some people are better at shaping long musical phrases, some are better at extended techniques, it's good to sort of "tailor" the music to what they're good at.
• If you personally aren't the soloist, don't be afraid to consult them during the process. Maybe some things are too challenging for them, or maybe they have suggestions on how to make something flow better. You'll learn a lot along the way! 
• Speaking of register, another reason I don't think it's wise to write the piano and orchestra parts separately is precisely because of orchestration. You want to leave space in the orchestra to let the soloist shine through. In my case, this meant not having a lot of flute parts (as in the ones sitting in the orchestra), and generally avoiding countermelodies/accompanying figures in the same register as the solo. In your case, you have the entire piano at your fingers, which is both a pro and a con. The pro being it's a lot more flexible in terms of register, the con being you can easily go crazy and write thick passages that will come out muddy if the whole orchestra is playing something too contrary. I think writing them separately would be too confusing, you might think while writing the piano part "oh, I should do this in the orchestra", but most likely forget it by the time you get to writing the orchestra.

These are all of course tip more on technical things and less about the actual act of writing music. As the others said, try everything and see what sticks. Don't overthink things, and of course have fun with it!

but again if we have an exact idea about the solo part and the orchestral part .writing it distinctively. moreover if we write the solo part first and the orchestra then ,we can develop the solo part more refined.

one question:can a cadenza be written at the opening of a concerto?

10 hours ago, BrotherVIOLA666 said:

one question:can a cadenza be written at the opening of a concerto?

By all means. Beethoven's 5th piano concerto (the "Emporer") famously opens with a large piano cadenza. Technically is does depend how you define cadenza - a solo flourish at the start of the movement might not count. Typically also full cadenzas develop themes from the movement.

As a general rule I usually get the point of what I am trying to accomplish with the concerto. is it simply to write one? is it to be played later on? is it written fro another person. these will affect how the concerto will turn out. 

Analyse the famous concerts of other composers. see what tricks they do and learn from them.

If it helps write the concerto for two pianos then orchestrate the second non soloist part.

On 5/20/2019 at 12:23 AM, caters said:

I am a pianist so I know how to make a piano piece sound good. And writing a piano concerto has always been one of my dreams as a composer. Now I know the typical first movement form of a concerto. It is basically a modified sonata form with 2 expositions instead of just 1. One for the orchestra without the soloist and one where the concentration is on the soloist. Other than that, it is like a typical symphonic movement. Now I have been given quite a bit of advice on writing symphonies. One of the pieces of advice that I was given was to write a concerto first because the orchestra in a concerto is smaller. Another was to basically figure out a motif and then go all Beethoven's 5th on it, basing the entire symphony on that 1 motif, like Beethoven did with his 5th symphony.

But I was wondering, since I am a pianist and more familiar with composing for piano, should I write the piano exposition first and then the orchestral exposition for my first piano concerto? Or should I stick to the standard orchestra first, then soloist?

 

Hello, I have just read your post and wanted to respond and give you advice ! I'm myself a pianist and I've already written a piano concerto (in fact, I'm currently composing another one right now). I know the difficulties of this process and the first thing you need to know is that it will be long and arduous. Composing a piano concerto is something that could spend months, don't be discouraged ! If you don't have ideas or if you have trouble to carry on, no problem, go outside, take a walk, find inspirations in nature, your friends, family... I used to see a piano concerto as a journey, each theme reminds me something, each transition is an echo to something in my life, to be honest, when I compose a piano concerto, it's like a painting of my life at a given moment. So don't be affraid to be stuck at some point, this is something unavoidable. 

This artistic description being done, let's talk about techinal issues. I recommend you to do a mindset of your first movement (that's the one you compose first right ?) before actually writing it. This has to be precise but not too precise so that, when the inspiration will come, it wouldn't be restrained by technical features. When I write a long multi-movement work, I have the habit to write small paragraphes to describe each part and the feeling it will have to emanate from it. For instance, you're not forced to write a double exposition movement, I know this is quite common for classical and late-classical composers to do it (even Chopin did!) but that's not obligatory and I personnaly find it's better to avoid it in a romantic-style concerto (but still, this is only my opinion). As many said before, you must compose the piano part and orchestra part as entities linked together. You're free to decide if your orchestra is more "soloist" or more accompanist (In the concerto I write currently, the orchestra is omnipresent during all the first theme and the piano is more an accompanist, even if its part is virtuoso). You have to visualize in a couple of seconds the entire continuity of your concerto ! As I said, when I write a paragraph, I also describe the texture of the piano part, don't understime texture, it gives, especially in piano parts, much more interest to the global piece. The transition parts need to be long enough to allow another theme to be introduced : in many pieces, I see composers who underestimate the importance of this part and it immediately make the composition precarious. I think, and that's also an advice to myself, that a piano concerto must be at least 10 minutes long for the first movement (I know there are exceptions : see Mendelssohn first piano concerto). When it comes to the motifs, I don't think it's particulary adapted to a first movement piano concerto where the goal of the composition in itself is to show the virtuosity of the soloist and the lyrical abilities of the instrument. Again, this is only my opinion and I'm sure someone will find a perfect example to refute me. I prefer use long tune/melody as a theme, especially in a first sonata-movement.  

Excuse me for this disorganized comment, but I wrote my thoughts as they flowed in my mind.

And of course I forgot to mention to listen to many composers, not just one or two. When you write a concerto, you have to know the entire repertoire (Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Chostakovitch, Mendelssohn, Brahms etc...). It's not a disgrace to be influenced by the ancient masters, but being stuck with reproducing a precise concerto is counterproductive.

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On 6/10/2020 at 1:12 AM, BrotherVIOLA666 said:

but again if we have an exact idea about the solo part and the orchestral part .writing it distinctively. moreover if we write the solo part first and the orchestra then ,we can develop the solo part more refined.

one question:can a cadenza be written at the opening of a concerto?

 

Definitely! Of course you can, although I can’t name many examples off the top of my head...

On 6/11/2020 at 10:27 PM, Blobster said:

Definitely! Of course you can, although I can’t name many examples off the top of my head...

 

Beethoven's Emporer concerto and Saint Saens second concerto come to mind first for me.

On 5/23/2019 at 2:54 AM, Mathieux said:

I recently completed a flute concerto that will be premiering in the fall. A few things I can share off the top of my head:

 

• I think it's unwise to write the piano part and orchestral part as two separate entities/two separate sessions. One thing I learned while writing was that you need to give the soloist time to breathe. Both in the literal sense, and also from the standpoint of the audience.  The ear tires from listening to the same type of sound after awhile, so the best way to keep the ear interested is to change up the sound. When you listen to great concertos (of any instrument), there will be sections heavy on the solist, sections where the soloist and orchestra play together as a "unit", and then purely orchestral sections. Those breaks are important, for everyone involved.
• Write to the strengths of your soloist. If it's you, then write to your own strengths! My solist has a very good technical capacity, and also has a very strong tone in the lower register, so I was sure to make it technically challenging and wasn't afraid to write some passages down low. Some people are better at shaping long musical phrases, some are better at extended techniques, it's good to sort of "tailor" the music to what they're good at.
• If you personally aren't the soloist, don't be afraid to consult them during the process. Maybe some things are too challenging for them, or maybe they have suggestions on how to make something flow better. You'll learn a lot along the way! 
• Speaking of register, another reason I don't think it's wise to write the piano and orchestra parts separately is precisely because of orchestration. You want to leave space in the orchestra to let the soloist shine through. In my case, this meant not having a lot of flute parts (as in the ones sitting in the orchestra), and generally avoiding countermelodies/accompanying figures in the same register as the solo. In your case, you have the entire piano at your fingers, which is both a pro and a con. The pro being it's a lot more flexible in terms of register, the con being you can easily go crazy and write thick passages that will come out muddy if the whole orchestra is playing something too contrary. I think writing them separately would be too confusing, you might think while writing the piano part "oh, I should do this in the orchestra", but most likely forget it by the time you get to writing the orchestra.

These are all of course tip more on technical things and less about the actual act of writing music. As the others said, try everything and see what sticks. Don't overthink things, and of course have fun with it!

 

im composing a symphony. do u have any advice to find a orchestra to premiere it?