Concerto grosso in g major

Concerto Grosso in g major:

Concerto grosso in g major written in the early italian school after Corelli for two solo violins, solo cello, strings and basso continuo. Written to my son Jonas. Key signature i used for this piece is G major (Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.)

I. Grave - allegro.

II. Adagio

III. Vivace

IV. Largo

V. Presto

Please tell me what you think.

SimenN

Wow, thats definitely among the best compositions Ive ever heard in the forum. Your music have a very genuine baroque style. I've written some baroque inspired music, but I find your concerto outstanding...I'm quite impressed. I didnt analyzed it in detail, though I find your counterpoint very right with lots of suspensions, but very comprehensive and natural at the same time. I've hear it in a time and cant find any weak points or remarks. I'll make a closer look at the score, because its very interesting...I also love the fugato style you use at the begining of some sections and the contrast between movements. Interesting the symbology of the GMajor key as well.

All through very consistent work. Congratulations and thanks for sharing! 

Have you studied Corelli's, Vivaldi's and Haendel's Concerto grossi to inspire you?

This is quite an achievement Simon. It is very authentic in style of Corelli,

may I ask where and how you learned your craft? 

22 hours ago, Guillem82 said:

Wow, thats definitely among the best compositions Ive ever heard in the forum. Your music have a very genuine baroque style. I've written some baroque inspired music, but I find your concerto outstanding...I'm quite impressed. I didnt analyzed it in detail, though I find your counterpoint very right with lots of suspensions, but very comprehensive and natural at the same time. I've hear it in a time and cant find any weak points or remarks. I'll make a closer look at the score, because its very interesting...I also love the fugato style you use at the begining of some sections and the contrast between movements. Interesting the symbology of the GMajor key as well.

All through very consistent work. Congratulations and thanks for sharing! 

Have you studied Corelli's, Vivaldi's and Haendel's Concerto grossi to inspire you?

 

Thank you very much for you uplifting comment, im glad you find the music interesting. The piece has not been revised, that is something i will do when I have time. There are som paralles that i did put on purpose there (the dillema between what the music wants and what the rules says) look at ms: 196 - 197, 198 - 199 and 230 - 231, 232 - 233 - the soprano line and bassline. But there sure are some non intentional mistakes too. I might also write do some harmonic changes when i write out the continuo part.

21 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

This is quite an achievement Simon. It is very authentic in style of Corelli,

may I ask where and how you learned your craft? 

 

Thank you very much Markus, im glad you enjoyed it.

To your questions: Back in 2011 - 2013 i wrote mainly music in the early baroque style after Stradella and Corelli. I wrote 13 concerto grosso, 5 trio sonats, and some sonatas for violin and keyboard. I started to write baroque music in the italian style in 2005/2006, but had a period where i wrote more in the german and north german baroque language. From 2014 - d.d i have many written music in the late italian school after vivaldi. I have not looked at a concerto grosso since i wrote my last one back in 2013. I am familair with Vivaldis work, but im more concervative in the concerto grosso style. I love hes d minor concerto though, its amazing. In not very familiar with Handel, though is pretty close to Corelli in style. My main influences have been Stradella and Corelli, and some Loctalli, Torelli, Merula, Gabrielli, Monteverdi. But i have aslo been deeply inflyuenced by Buxtehude and Vivaldi.

This Concerto Grosso is more of a hybrid in style, as the late baroque technique is present at some parts. My earlier concerots is more true to the early italian language.

I have a bachelor in organ, where i also hade traditional composition (not that i learned anything new there), Mainly im a selftought composer, listening, living and breathing the style of music i want to express myself in is how i learned it. I have also given lessons in baroque composition for those who are interested, that is acutally something that both where benefital for me as well as the student.

Thank you for your comments guys.

As always, your compositions are done with total perfection but I never hear Simen N in these works, rather a full-blooded imitation of baroque music of late 17th and early 18th century. I was really hoping you'd get bored by now and try to find your own personal language so listeners may say: This is definitely Simen N, not Corelli for example. I know you will probably berate me for writing this (as you have done it before) but I can't help myself, I find it a shame for such a talented composer like you to be satisfied with pastiche.

43 minutes ago, Sojar Voglar said:

As always, your compositions are done with total perfection but I never hear Simen N in these works, rather a full-blooded imitation of baroque music of late 17th and early 18th century. I was really hoping you'd get bored by now and try to find your own personal language so listeners may say: This is definitely Simen N, not Corelli for example. I know you will probably berate me for writing this (as you have done it before) but I can't help myself, I find it a shame for such a talented composer like you to be satisfied with pastiche.

 

I think it’s fair to say this website hosts a mix bag of individuals, with contrasting interests and ambitions. Without encouraging a digression from Simen’s music, I’ll simply state we should respect everyone’s individual tastes. 

7 hours ago, Sojar Voglar said:

As always, your compositions are done with total perfection but I never hear Simen N in these works, rather a full-blooded imitation of baroque music of late 17th and early 18th century. I was really hoping you'd get bored by now and try to find your own personal language so listeners may say: This is definitely Simen N, not Corelli for example. I know you will probably berate me for writing this (as you have done it before) but I can't help myself, I find it a shame for such a talented composer like you to be satisfied with pastiche.

 

And I think it's a shame when a talented composer feels pressured to write in a style other the one he or she enjoys.  I don't care one whit whether I'm hearing Simen N, or Sojar Voglar; I want to hear good music - which, of course, is something that both of you invariably provide.

8 minutes ago, Aiwendil said:

And I think it's a shame when a talented composer feels pressured to write in a style other the one he or she enjoys.  I don't care one whit whether I'm hearing Simen N, or Sojar Voglar; I want to hear good music - which, of course, is something that both of you invariably provide.

I think this is well said, Aiwendil. I know Sojar only meant what he said as an encouragement for Simen to explore other musical styles. But, as the bard famously put it, "To thine ownself be true."

That's what I like most about this forum: the ability to hear as many different styles as there are composers on here!

19 hours ago, Sojar Voglar said:

As always, your compositions are done with total perfection but I never hear Simen N in these works, rather a full-blooded imitation of baroque music of late 17th and early 18th century. I was really hoping you'd get bored by now and try to find your own personal language so listeners may say: This is definitely Simen N, not Corelli for example. I know you will probably berate me for writing this (as you have done it before) but I can't help myself, I find it a shame for such a talented composer like you to be satisfied with pastiche.

 

Yes, of course one is free to write what one wants. I, however, agree with Sojar, in that I find it such a pity that Simen is not exploring more in "finding his own voice". The music sounds like an exact copy of Corelli, so why would I listen to his music instead of Corelli's music, which was in fact not a copied idiom? 

Well done, Simen. I admire your skills, but I encourage you deeply to seek beyond imitating styles. 

The minute 2:58 of the first movement felt too repentine for me. Awesome use of harmony and dissonance in the 2nd movement. The closing chords of the 3rd movement also felt a little bit out of place, like it feels too repentine because if the change of texture I believe. Maybe the way of starting the 4th movement is too similar to the 2nd one. Cool presto.

I don' have much else to say, the piece is good and I can't add much. Great composition. I believe the 2nd and 3rd movements were my favourite ones.

On 6/8/2020 at 3:57 PM, Sojar Voglar said:

As always, your compositions are done with total perfection but I never hear Simen N in these works, rather a full-blooded imitation of baroque music of late 17th and early 18th century. I was really hoping you'd get bored by now and try to find your own personal language so listeners may say: This is definitely Simen N, not Corelli for example. I know you will probably berate me for writing this (as you have done it before) but I can't help myself, I find it a shame for such a talented composer like you to be satisfied with pastiche.

 

Thank you for your reviews Sojar and Maarten Bauer. We have had that discussion many times before, and I wil try to explan again. I do write in a style/idom yes, and the goal is to sound as it would have been written in the 17th century. I write in the school of Corelli (wich is something is called now, back in the baroque Corelli harmonic and meldoic langauge was typical for the style, though he did countinue to develop the concerto grosso form, as Stradella had started). Corellis iitalian comtemporarys sound very much alike him, i doubt anyone how does not know hes music well could hear if it was Corelli, Torelli, Locatelli, Stradella, etc. But if you really know the composer, you would hear the "voice of the composer".

My music is influenced by later styles of italian baroque, as well as german, and north german (buxtenhude). That influence is allways present in my music, so that means that i have some things that is not typical for the italian style. First of all, the music i compose it flows as natural from my head is it does for you when you write your music. This piece is not a copy of Corelli, but i use the same main traits as him and all the other contemporarys did. If your logic is right, then everybody is just copying, that is not right is it?

Take Handel for an example. Every heard the hallelujah corus? - The main melody here something Corelli and hes contemporarys have written 100 times before. This the most common traits of a melody from this period, both melodic, rytmic and harmonic. Its phrase. This is actually used in a fugual theme by Corelli.

I could have been going on with examples like this. The point here is when one compose in a style there are meldodic, harmonic and rytmic simularities, often its allomost the same, but its not a copy. These things are the tools one use to make the music, nowbody owns them. As JS Bach once said, im am not an artist, im a craftsman. Its not just all about what you write, its as music as how its written. This things goes for all styles, even the one you write, that you belive is so full of your own voice, but you are bound by the same things as me.

8 hours ago, Maarten Bauer said:

The music sounds like an exact copy of Corelli, so why would I listen to his music instead of Corelli's music, which was in fact not a copied idiom? 

I think that is a really strange thing to say. Its not a song, its a style. So if you like punk rock, with bother listening to SUM41 when you have heard Green Day. Why would you listen to Zelenka when you have Bach? Why listen to Kraus when you have Mozart?. Maybe people who like Corelli and hes contemporarys enjoy my music. If they do, im very happy. I express my music, if it gives anyone pleasuere is great, if not its more then ok. If you rather would listen to Corelli, please do that 🙂

I tire of this debate, I have been a part of it for 15 years now..!

13 minutes ago, Simen-N said:

I tire of this debate, I have been a part of it for 15 years now..!

Indeed. I think if you want to do other stuff, or iterate on what you can do, that's your decision.  But I agree it would be nice to see you going a little more "experimental" with what you can already do pretty well. Or at least take a few more risks with the style you already dominate.

1 hour ago, Simen-N said:

I think that is a really strange thing to say. Its not a song, its a style. So if you like punk rock, with bother listening to SUM41 when you have heard Green Day. Why would you listen to Zelenka when you have Bach? Why listen to Kraus when you have Mozart?. Maybe people who like Corelli and hes contemporarys enjoy my music. If they do, im very happy. I express my music, if it gives anyone pleasuere is great, if not its more then ok. If you rather would listen to Corelli, please do that 🙂

How did you assume that I call this a song?
You are making a false relation. Zelenka was a contemporary of Bach. Kraus of Mozart. You are not living during Corelli's time I suppose. It seems more that you are building replicas than compositions that are originally yours, since this style is more than 200 years old.
Music being a replica often automatically resolves into a downgraded version of what has been replicated.

The opposition to pastiche composition has a common theme, one which I experienced at my school when I first developed an interest in it. It harbors the idea that music is the creation of an artist, and all art should contain artistic expression. Imitation of a style or composer from a bygone era, therefore, should not be encouraged for it will limit one's means to distinguish themselves within a school or tradition that countless others have already exhausted through their output.

Whilst this argument has some merit, it is based on a number of misconceptions and assumptions that cannot be ignored if one is to think about it. As Simen points out in his quote by JS Bach, composers of the 18th century were more craftsmen than artists, whose craft centered around pleasing and relatable patterns. Many highly successful composers from this period were educated in institutions that from an early age drilled their students in such patterns by rote, to the extent that it became a second language.

I think it is fair to say that the underlying practice of composers from the 17th and 18th centuries conflicts with our understanding of artistry (that is, if you associate artistry as something beautiful or profound that pushes boundaries and which may challenges people intellectually). It is no coincidence that popular music from this era is predominantly by figures whose mastery enabled them to set themselves apart from their contemporaries. But how can one begin to understand their art without looking at the context in which their craft was cultivated?

The truth is, the practices of the 18th century musical world have long ceased to exist. There is much we do not understand and may never do. The attempted revival of their practices in my view, is more a scholarly exercise and Simen seems to do this better than others. I have observed that most who use this forum subscribe post-romantic models, and many have become quite specialized in their respective disciplines. An inevitable outcome of this is that people will project different things on other people's works. That is an important thing to consider when you are offering criticism.

39 minutes ago, Markus Boyd said:

The opposition to pastiche composition has a common theme, one which I experienced at my school when I first developed an interest in it. It harbors the idea that music is the creation of an artist, and all art should contain artistic expression. Imitation of a style or composer from a bygone era, therefore, should not be encouraged for it will limit one's means to distinguish themselves within a school or tradition that countless others have already exhausted through their output.

Whilst this argument has some merit, it is based on a number of misconceptions and assumptions that cannot be ignored if one is to think about it. As Simen points out in his quote by JS Bach, composers of the 18th century were more craftsmen than artists, whose craft centered around pleasing and relatable patterns. Many highly successful composers from this period were educated in institutions that from an early age drilled their students in such patterns by rote, to the extent that it became a second language.

I think it is fair to say that the underlying practice of composers from the 17th and 18th centuries conflicts with our understanding of artistry (that is, if you associate artistry as something beautiful or profound that pushes boundaries and which may challenges people intellectually). It is no coincidence that popular music from this era is predominantly by figures whose mastery enabled them to set themselves apart from their contemporaries. But how can one begin to understand their art without looking at the context in which their craft was cultivated?

The truth is, the practices of the 18th century musical world have long ceased to exist. There is much we do not understand and may never do. The attempted revival of their practices in my view, is more a scholarly exercise and Simen seems to do this better than others. I have observed that most who use this forum subscribe post-romantic models, and many have become quite specialized in their respective disciplines. An inevitable outcome of this is that people will project different things on other people's works. That is an important thing to consider when you are offering criticism.

 

Markus, what an thought trough statement. In all my years and disscusions on this subject nobody has ever said something like this. What you say is true. And as you say, most composers on this forum write post-romantic music.

When they are attacking what i am doing, they forget that they are doing the same as me to an extent. No one on this forum do not write within a style, nor did anyone here invent their own style. Every composer are influenced and expressing themself within a practice or style. Some styles are more free, some styles are more restricted.

Ask yourself this:

When somone hear your "ture voice" works, what do they say? Do they mistake it for beeing baroque music? - no they dont. Do they mistanke it for beeing Classical or romantic music? - no they dont. Do they hear its post-romantic or modern? Yes they do. How is that?  - Is it because the score is dated 2020? - Or is it because the music in buildt on practice and principles from modern music? - The lack of tonalcenter, the figures for modern music, the use of the instruments, the use of long notes and more rests then notes, the harmony, the structure and the form. This is your style and tratis, but you did not invent them, as i did not invent the traits of my style.

If what you Maartin say is true, then we all are just copyists. How amazing is that. To actually say that a piece of music or art is just a copy its a bit mean 😄 Even as the practice is long gone, its fully possible to learn the craft and the language of the practice and write expressive music in it with one own crativitiy and voice. To be creative in the style is not to do something extreme that never have been done before, but a individual will allways have hes own traits (as explained over).

The - usually well-meaning - advice not to write pastiche (which is to say, not to write in old styles) but rather to write music that is "true to oneself", that is "authentic", is built on several assumptions that are questionable at best.  Chiefly, it assumes that authenticity is the chief virtue of art - which, in turn, depends on a very particular view of the role of the artist, as if the value of art is primarily in the expression of the artist, rather than its value being in the art itself.  It's as if the only reason to listen to a Corelli piece were because it is by Corelli, or because it dates from such and such a year.  And this strikes me very much as nonsense.  I (and I would daresay the vast majority of people) listen to a piece of music because I enjoy the music itself, because the music itself provides me a satisfying artistic experience.  So it matters not one whit, as far as the value of that work (to me) is concerned, whether it was written by Corelli or by Simen N.  The music is what it is, and its value is in itself, not in who wrote it or in what year it was written.

Moreover, there's an unwarranted assumption not only that someone's "true voice" exists in a meaningful way but also that this true voice has to be more or less in line with current musical trends.  Who's to say that Simen N's authentic musical spirit, if such a thing exists, is not the Baroque one displayed here? 

If I had a CD of concerti like this one by Simen N, I would gladly listen to them, just as I listen to my CDs of Corelli concerti grossi - neither because they were written by Simen N in 2020, nor in spite of it, but just because I would enjoy them. 

Couldn’t have said it more eloquently 

@Simen-N

I wish I had an ability to compose something of this magnitude. This is nothing but incredible and beautiful! 

Could you take a break from composing and make a video series on YouTube and teach us how to compose in this style?

Good grief... my parents think my music is worth trying to get a baroque orchestra to play it

3 hours ago, i(don't)suckatcomposing said:

@Simen-N

I wish I had an ability to compose something of this magnitude. This is nothing but incredible and beautiful! 

Could you take a break from composing and make a video series on YouTube and teach us how to compose in this style?

 

Good grief... my parents think my music is worth trying to get a baroque orchestra to play it

 

A single video would not do the question justice. If you’re interested in this period, you should first:

- listen widely to 18th century repertoire in general

- introduce yourself to the contemporary work of Robert Gjerdigen , Sanguinetti, Daniel Heartz and John Rice

Once you are familiar with and can identify common patterns as you hear them, you might be better at manipulating them for your own designs. However you should set yourself reasonable expectations, as being self-taught can be limiting. Most successful composers benefited from learning within a community and culture from a young age. In other words, the fundamentals of their craft were ingrained during youth. That is not to deter you from trying, but only to point out that creating an “authentic” pastiche composition is actually incredibly difficult, since we are long detached from this era culturally speaking. 

I think you should definitely look to apply some of the more common patterns identified here in your work, whilst adhering to your own style. 

http://openmusictheory.com/schemataSummary.html

8 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

A single video would not do the question justice

I didn't say a singe video, I said a series.

I already listen to a ton of music from the time period for almost 7 hours straight while I'm at work.

8 hours ago, Markus Boyd said:

Once you are familiar with and can identify common patterns as you hear them, you might be better at manipulating them for your own designs. However you should set yourself reasonable expectations, as being self-taught can be limiting. Most successful composers benefited from learning within a community and culture from a young age. In other words, the fundamentals of their craft were ingrained during youth. That is not to deter you from trying, but only to point out that creating an “authentic” pastiche composition is actually incredibly difficult, since we are long detached from this era culturally speaking. 

I already knew that, I just wanted someone to make a resource because being self-taught is hard. I like the site you linked me, that is something I've wanted.

3 hours ago, i(don't)suckatcomposing said:

I didn't say a singe video, I said a series.

I already listen to a ton of music from the time period for almost 7 hours straight while I'm at work.

I already knew that, I just wanted someone to make a resource because being self-taught is hard. I like the site you linked me, that is something I've wanted.

 

Okay, well check out This channel on YouTube. It’s run by John rice and he posts content quite regularly at the moment

Also this website run by Gjerdigen for partimenti exercises that gives you targeted practice. Most of them have no corresponding realizations on the web, so you are on your own. But there is a niche community that is committed to them

Ie - 

not many people will be prepared to produce a Series if video instruction free of charge. But you are welcome to do so once you feel confident at it 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160116065611/http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/partimenti/index.htm

3 hours ago, i(don't)suckatcomposing said:

I didn't say a singe video, I said a series.

I already listen to a ton of music from the time period for almost 7 hours straight while I'm at work.

I already knew that, I just wanted someone to make a resource because being self-taught is hard. I like the site you linked me, that is something I've wanted.

 

Okay, well check out This channel on YouTube. It’s run by John rice and he posts content quite regularly at the moment

Also this website run by Gjerdigen for partimenti exercises that gives you targeted practice. Most of them have no corresponding realizations on the web, so you are on your own. But there is a niche community that is committed to them

Ie - 

not many people will be prepared to produce a Series if video instruction free of charge. But you are welcome to do so once you feel confident at it 

also check out this Chanel run by Gjerdigen. It contains some instructions on partimenti

 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMlksPU1SiTL66Df2J5BDNA

Hi Simon! Thank you for posting and sharing your beautiful Concerto Grosso with us. I have very much enjoyed your music. It would, needless to say, benefit from a performance by a period ensemble. It's very high quality, even if there are always details that can be bettered. I know that many contemporary composers that write in more 'avant-garde' musical idioms feel that writing in other older established languages is outdated. I disagree, and don't presume to change the way they think nor of imposing my artistic sensibilities on them. Don't feel discouraged. I myself, as a composer in a tonal world, understand when you say that this musical style flows naturally from you. It happens to me, as well. When I had to go through compositions training I was asked to write in more 'contemporary' languages and styles, and I did so, but it required a very conscious effort not to sound like what I heard in my head. I am glad that stage in my career is a thing of the past. I am now able to continue to be faithful to my own style and musical preferences, and I find that professional musicians and fellow composers of the highest caliber (Huw Watkins, who is a good friend of mine, and Oliver Davis, too) are deeply respectful of my music. I have recently recorded for Signum Classics and they didn't think my music was 'outdated'. Alma Deutscher is widely loved and has recently signed to Sony Classical. THey don't think she is outdated, either. It's usually the academic circle that finds these artistic sensibilities somehow inappropriate. Oh well, what can we do? Be faithful to our muse. That is all.

Wishing you the best,
Rodrigo

P.S. If ever you want me to take a close look at your music I would be happy to do so. I am often sent music by fellow composers to provide feedback. I have my set of people I trust, too, one of which is Francesco Telli, head of composition at the Conservatorio Nazionale di Santa Cecilia in Rome. I am happy to pay the fee he asks for an hour-long lesson, because my music is much improved after.

Works like this prove the point that great music is not limited to a particular point in history. There is as much value in sustaining traditions as there is in originality.  I applaud you for sticking to your chosen style in the face of criticism.  Had you given in, this work wouldn't exist, and I frankly like this better than much of the music that was actually produced in the Baroque era. Though it is clear that this is written in a Baroque manner, your personal voice is perfectly apparent to me, most of all in the sublime fourth movement.