Piano concerto in C minor - I "Moderato"

Hi everyone, 

For those who don't know me my name is Camille, I'm French and I'm 17 years old. I'm familiar with classical music and orchestral litterature and I often compose for piano and orchestra.
These last 3 months I composed a piano concerto in C minor. This is my big project of the moment and also the one that took me most time to compose. I create this topic to share the first movement of this piano concerto. It lasts about 17 minutes and follow a strict sonata form. I took the habit to compose a piano concerto per year and this is what I consider my most accomplished piece so far. 
Here is below the score and the audio. Enjoy the music, and, please, tell me your opinion about this composition. 

STRUCTURE OF THE MOVEMENT :


INTRODUCTION :
M. 1-31 (Moderato, TEMPO I) : Orchestral introduction, statement of the first “theme” on cellos and violas. Dramatic crescendo until the piano entrance
M 31-39 : brief piano cadenza allowing the listener to be more familiar with the main theme/material of the piece. Little arpeggios …
EXPOSITION:
M. 40 – 76 (Allegro) : This is the one ! After a short motif used later in the concerto (in the cello/bass part) statement of the THEME 1 A (violins parts) that as been stated in the introduction. Repeated in piano part m.57. The reappearance of theme 1A leads to a dramatic climax m.70 (being the continuity of 1A).
M. 77 – 120 (Vivace) : THEME 1 B. Much faster, this theme consists of a repeated eight-notes pattern in the woods. The piano responds with an avalanche of sixteenth notes. Until m.120, strings are an accompaniment. Main motives are stated in the woods (such as the motif m99, flutes and oboes, it will appear later in the development). The pianist is showing is virtuosity in his modulating part and is assisting the orchestra. M17-20 : end the of first theme with a frenetic climb.
M 120-127 : Transition to THEME 2. The piano part is quoting 1A and the clarinets are stating a thematic material of transition later used in the development. The rhythm seems to slow down allowing a quasi-cadenza in piano part (m127) leading to…
M 128-150 (Andante) : THEME 2A. Lyrical theme (piano part) that appears 3 times, each one being richer in accompaniment and chord. The 3rd one is introduced by the clarinet material OF m120-127.
M 150-169 : THEME 2B : consisting (mainly) of one quarter note and six descending quavers. Again, a virtuosic piano and a support orchestra merges and form a whole for this 2B.
M 170-184 : Return of THEME 2A but in a heroic climax where the piano supports the orchestra with arpeggiated chords. Transition with big orchestra chord until…
M. 185-194 : ENDING OF EXPOSITION : Theme 2A and 2B are combined but in a the minor key of C to allow the arrival of …
DEVELOPMENT:
M. 195 – 215 : A repetition of the orchestral introduction with a few small things arranged to lead to the development
M. 215 – 250 : Basically THEME 1A is all over the place, dissected, disguised, modulated. Have fun trying to count how many times it appears, you will be wide of the mark lol (You’ll notice, by the way, the transition theme M247, clarinets).
M. 251 : 266 : Same thing as m215-250 but with THEME 1 B.
M. 267-280 : mish-mash of T1A and T1B leading to
CADENZA:
M 280-323 : The cadenza is divided in two parts each one being a recapture of T1A. One is aggressive and fast while the other must be played maestoso.
M 323-337 (En ralentissant tempo T2) : THEME 2 A being stated in the form of a bucolic love letter leading to
M. 339 – 350 (Tempo I) : orchestral introduction allows the arrival of :

RECAPITULATION:
M. 350 – 383 : THEME 1A is repeated with a long piano speech of with what I called earlier the “continuity of” 1A.
M.384 – 404 : THEME 1B (modulations, few changes + new clarinet melody) + transition theme leading to
M 405 – 417 : Small piano cadenza, this one could be improvised by the pianist ! Statement of THEME 2 A with big and dramatic piano chords helping the orchestra to achieve the tragic of the moment.
M 418 – 421 : THEME 2 B faster and faster.
CODA :
M. 422 - END (Vivace) : Using of T1A with virtuosic piano passages and symbiosis between soloist and orchestra until the end.

Dang! Going to start off my paragraph here with the compliment that I listened to the whole 17 minutes! You should really walk away feeling awesome that you wrote this, and despite what I say below I love this piece of music and I have massive respect for you.

Time lengths scare me, but your music definitely washed me into it very well. I can hear the glaring similarity in tone and power to Rachmaninoff's 2nd, which you say is one of your favorite composers in your bio, but it is almost uncanny. My biggest problem with the piece is that, while of course they are your ideas, there is just this off feeling that I am just listening to another Rach concerto - instead of Camille's concerto! Take this whatever way you like, but the piece was epic on several scales and I am happy to meet another 17 year old clarinetist +  composer! Pen pal me if you want lol seems like we have stuff in common.

Your first 4 minutes really had me hooked, but I feel this piece fell under what I consider the "just keep going" mentality so many composers do. The music I have grown to love is music that is concise and knows when to call it quits. IMO, no piece of music (er, more like movement of music) ever needs to be more than 10 minutes long. There is just so much lost in my memory that I literally can't remember your ideas and moments because there were so many. I think it is cooler to pick and choose the best ideas from the grape vine instead of stacking them all into one giant piece.

Length is something I have noticed a lot of stuff late-romantic and earlier have trouble with (maybe the handwritten scores didn't help). Totally subjective to me, though, but most composers I listen to (Ravel, Debussy, Adams, Reich,  Poulenc) know when to end their music. My most recent piece, the first movement of my Suite of Minimalism, wraps up at just 4 minutes 30 seconds. There are so many variations I meshed together to create a cohesive package of sound flavors for the listener, and I did this on purpose following my mentallity listed in this paragraph. 

Your work is finished, and I do not want you to go and delete 12 minutes of this just to fit into my critique. I can't tell if you are using noteperformer or some other sounds but they sound really great. Kudos to you on this big project, and I hope you take a few minutes to go listen to that piece I mentioned above that I wrote + leave your take. Thanks for the fun listen 🙂!

- Evan

I really like the slow build you have in the beginning.  The introduction segues nicely into almost a kind of cadenza for the piano although I know the cadenza-proper comes much later.  For me listening without the score a second time allows me much better to hear the melodies.  I feel like the piano figurations should be more based on the melody instead of just arpeggios like you have at 7:02.  I mean that's a great moment you have where the orchestra hits a chord and the piano solos a bit and then repeats.  The same kind of thing happens at 9:13 where the piano just plays arpeggios.  I guess they're great opportunities for showmanship but they would be more memorable imo if they were based on a melody.  The flute melody you have after the piano cadenza reminds me of Rachmaninoff.  It develops nicely on the piano and I wouldn't call it a copy by any means.  But I guess there are in fact many places where the piano does base it's figurations on a melody such as 16:50.  Almost no need to say that overall this is an outstanding concerto!  (listening for the 3rd time) The passionate A theme is nicely contrasted by the rushing figurations at 2:53.  I love the clarinet melody you have at 4:12.  The slow build at 7:40 develops nicely into another instance where the piano figurations are based on a melody at 8:24.  The piano at 9:00 is brilliant.  10:32 is a bit arpeggio heavy but I guess it can't really be avoided sometimes in this style of concerto.  I like the gradual way you bring the piano out of it's cadenza while at the same time avoiding the customary tonic 6/4 chord and trill.  I'm guessing that the coda starts at 16:26.  Thanks for the music!

Lots of great ideas, no doubt this is one of the best modern piano concertos I have heard so far. I'm really happy to see more and more people interested in a more tonal and classical style of composition.  

Also for your age that's an outstanding piece of music.

First of all, thank you @Ivan1791 @PaperComposer and @Eickso for taking the time to comment this piece. This is so meaningful and helpful for a composer to receive feedbacks and advice, I appreciate that. 

@Eickso : I'm very glad you managed to listen to the entire piece, I know it can be scary when such a large composition is in front of you. As far as the lenght of this movement is concerned, I think exactly like you for other compositions. I often compose piano piece that don't exceed 5 minutes because I feel I expressed what I had to say, and it's no need to compose more. But this is a piano concerto and not only I had there A LOT of ideas and themes to express and expose but also I had to respect the sonata form for such a composition. I think I'll write another comment to give the structure of the movement because I know that it can appear too long and with no logic ! In the past, I've already composed such movements that didn't exceed 9 minutes and it was right because it was in a classical style (such as Mozart's or Haydn's concertos). But there I feel I had to go further and I can assure you I wasn't in the "just keep going" mentality you mentionned before (although I know exactly what you mean and I respect your opinion about it because I know some young composers that composed ~30 minutes long movement !!). In other words, I know that it can seem long but actually, it's not that long for a romantic piano concerto ! Chopin, Brahms, Tchaikovsky and others did much longer. Furthermore, I already know that the 2 next movements won't be that long as they only be a slow movement and a rondo. When it comes to the Rachmaninoff's similarities, I can tell you I wasn't inspired at all by his 2nd concerto (neither in the form nor the themes...). In my opinion, as Rach is one of my fav, his music is so IN me that some similarities are reflected in my music. I take your remark well because it's always a compliment to hear that this concerto could be a Rach ! In fact this is the inconvenience of being a young composer, I might know the music rules and theorie but my style is still evolving and your mind see a Rachmaninoff where it's a Camille ahah ! By the way, I'll listen to the composition you mentioned, and it would be a pleasure to penpal you, I could give you my Instagram to talk ahah !

@PaperComposer : Thanks for your comment ! You did well to listen again without the score. It allows, I think, to be more focused on the melody and the logic behind the movement. I know it can be dreadful for some composers to put arpeggios because it's the easiest way for the piano to accompany the orchestra, but I always thought that arpeggios had their place in a concerto at certain times. I find it beautiful and helpful for the pianist because it's, in a way, relaxing and a break before going on a melody. At 7:02, these octaves-arpeggios are based on the motif of the first subject. At that very moment the music reaches a climax that allowed me to put octaves (you're right, it's time to the soloist to shine !! Octaves are a great way to highlight virtuosity in piano concerto, especially with a speed that high). The flute melody after the real cadenza is a reminiscence of the first subject of the B theme (the slow one). It permits a good transition to the closing episode of the development with a statement of the second theme (follow by the reexposition). If this reminds you Rachmaninoff, this wasn't on purpose. As I said before, I'll do a description of the design of the movement ! 🙂 Thanks again for listening, I'm glad you appreciated the music. 

@Ivan1791  I am, too, really happy that people are getting more and more attracted again by tonal music. I'm so pleased you think it's a good piano concerto. Thanks for your support!

Camille,

Thanks for writing back. I actually listened through your piece all the way through again because, sleeping on it, I thought it was really cool. Took some time during my break at work to listen with headphones and I have a much greater appreciation for it. The time is still long enough that at points I check to see how much is left, but I think I only checked like... 3-4 times? It was very engaging, and the ending (yesterday too) leaves me with goosebumps.

To go deeper into the Rach 2 comment, I don’t really know much about structure and I know you didn’t take his themes. But, what I meant was the feelings and orchestration and way you build to moments (especially those first few minutes) REALLY reminds me of it. In the way that I said, it really feels like I’m listening to like, his 5th piano concerto. There are also other spots that sound similar to his rhapsody on a theme of paganini. Anyways, finding that inner voice of taking your next steps into your personalized style is difficult and it is awesome you are getting there. This work is a great example of you, and I can’t truly say to you what I mean by finding your own style because this might be it already! I’m lucky enough to say I have found my composing style at my age...

What sounds are these, though?!

I’ll dm you my instagram I’d love to talk.

-Evan

Hi everyone, I wrote a structure plan of the movement for the listener to better understand the concerto so far (I know, it's been 6 months lol). Check out the original post ! 🙂 

Nice Camfrtt, very accomplished. For me personally I feel you could simplify things, and be a bit melodically clearer. Reminds me of opening theme Rach 1, orchestral writing very well balanced. Well done! Lovely to listen to.

Mike

On 1/24/2021 at 4:44 PM, Mikebat321 said:

Nice Camfrtt, very accomplished. For me personally I feel you could simplify things, and be a bit melodically clearer. Reminds me of opening theme Rach 1, orchestral writing very well balanced. Well done! Lovely to listen to.

Mike

 

Hello Mike, sorry for the late reply !

Which moments, in your opinion, should be simplified ? 🙂

Hi @Camfrtt,

I must first say, you are very talented to have written this at the age of 17! 17 minutes really do not seem long for me! I also like and wrote long pieces as well! The piano part is so captivating and the orchestration is very good! I absolutely enjoy this, there's no doubt about it.

I can hear the youthful spirit in your themes and your treatment of them, quite Mendelssohn like I will say. Their presentation is quite straightforward and sometimes the transition between the themes gives me the same feeling. The reappearence of the themes are sometimes only the repetition of them but I don't mind it as a concerto, since for me concerto is sometimes an "easier" genre for me. I love how direct you are and the power in it!

I want to say about the structure of this movement. For me it's the main shortcoming. First is about the tonal plan. I see you use the tonal scheme of Chopin Concerto no.1 with the second subject modulates to the tonic major, which is fine for me. But when reaching the development I still feel like most of the sections are still under the spell of C minor and the tonality doesn't give me contrast. I have to wait until the second subject of the recapitulation which is E flat major to find some contrast of tonality, but the section is brief. This makes the tragic effect minimized with the all-C minor mood here.

Another thing is the balance of structure. The recapitulation is only under 100 bars with the second subject under 40 bars, comparing to exposition's over 150 bars and 2nd subject over 70 bars and development over 150 bars. It does give me the feeling of rushing till the end and lessen the dramatic effect. This is what I feel sad about since you build up so well in the expo and dev!

I also find the return of C minor in b.185 not quite good since it weakens the drama of pretaining the use of C minor in the development, and the build up to it not quite satisfactory without suitable preparation.

But despite saying all these, I really admire your talent. Just 17 yo then and write this!! So talented and a marvellous job. You will definitely write even better music in the future!! Thank you so much for sharing!

Henry

Hi @Henry Ng Tsz Kiu, Thank you so much for taking the time to review this. I will do my best to answer what you brought up.

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I can hear the youthful spirit in your themes and your treatment of them, quite Mendelssohn like I will say. Their presentation is quite straightforward and sometimes the transition between the themes gives me the same feeling. The reappearence of the themes are sometimes only the repetition of them but I don't mind it as a concerto, since for me concerto is sometimes an "easier" genre for me. I love how direct you are and the power in it!

I listened to this first movement again before reading your message, and I agree with you in the idea that the themes are presented "straightforward". Maybe today, I'd add complexity but 2 years ago, this was really the first time I composed a "serious" piano concerto. It seems this was quite coarse and indelicate.

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I want to say about the structure of this movement. For me it's the main shortcoming. First is about the tonal plan. I see you use the tonal scheme of Chopin Concerto no.1 with the second subject modulates to the tonic major, which is fine for me. But when reaching the development I still feel like most of the sections are still under the spell of C minor and the tonality doesn't give me contrast. I have to wait until the second subject of the recapitulation which is E flat major to find some contrast of tonality, but the section is brief. This makes the tragic effect minimized with the all-C minor mood here.

Indeed, I wanted to use the C major key for the 2nd theme as I also wanted to use Eb major for the recapitulation. When it comes to the lack of tonal diversity in the development, I understand your feeling, it. However, there is a part in E minor (with the triplets, before the Cadenza), and a section in Eb major (statement of the 2nd subject just before the recapitulation). I also try to always include harmonic diversity without necessarily changing of key, because if so, I would feel the necessity to develop it more than for a few bars or short episodes.

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

Another thing is the balance of structure. The recapitulation is only under 100 bars with the second subject under 40 bars, comparing to exposition's over 150 bars and 2nd subject over 70 bars and development over 150 bars. It does give me the feeling of rushing till the end and lessen the dramatic effect. This is what I feel sad about since you build up so well in the expo and dev!

About this subject, I must say that it was completely deliberate. I did not want the recapitulation to last for too long as the real Climax was, for me, reached within the Cadenza section. I also did not want to tire the listener with the restatement of themes that had been heard so many times in the Exposition/development (even tho all of them are present in the recapitulation). To be completely honnest, I took inspiration from Rach 2, where the recapitulation is also a bit rushed.

2 hours ago, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

But despite saying all these, I really admire your talent. Just 17 yo then and write this!! So talented and a marvellous job. You will definitely write even better music in the future!! Thank you so much for sharing!

In any case, thanks for commenting on that post. Your message are always welcomed as they really push me into trying to improve my music. The 2nd movement of this concerto is already finished, and I posted it on this forum. If you have time and envy, would you consider giving your opinion about it? I composed it this summer and consider it far more mature than this movement and it is, for now, my favorite.

Hi @Camfrtt,

I've just listened to the movement for the second time, this time with the score! I really enjoy the power in it, there's no doubt about it! I am not going to lie, I really fall into tears in some of the passages. It's more touching this time, I don't why. It's definitely very Rach 2 like but of course in a very good way. You absorb his harmony and melodic structure, and that russian cantabile style is so fascinating here. For sure you have a very good model to learn on! I won't recommend to find originality and innovation this early like in your age since you have to have something to stretch on first and then you can start to find your own voice. Congrats on that!

10 hours ago, Camfrtt said:

I listened to this first movement again before reading your message, and I agree with you in the idea that the themes are presented "straightforward". Maybe today, I'd add complexity but 2 years ago, this was really the first time I composed a "serious" piano concerto. It seems this was quite coarse and indelicate.

Actually I don't think this is indelicate or so. I love your directness in it and it makes the music more powerful for me, as it makes me cry. Also as a really young composer it's common, just like early Mendelssohn and Schubert pieces. I find Mendelssohn's Octet direct too even it's a masterpiece, so that's not a problem at all for me.

10 hours ago, Camfrtt said:

Indeed, I wanted to use the C major key for the 2nd theme as I also wanted to use Eb major for the recapitulation. When it comes to the lack of tonal diversity in the development, I understand your feeling, it. However, there is a part in E minor (with the triplets, before the Cadenza), and a section in Eb major (statement of the 2nd subject just before the recapitulation). I also try to always include harmonic diversity without necessarily changing of key, because if so, I would feel the necessity to develop it more than for a few bars or short episodes.

Personally for me the wait for another key centre is too long, since only in b.250 appears the E minor section and it soon modulates to G major which is also under the spell of C minor as the dominant of C it. Maybe if you begin the development section in another key other than C minor will make the music more varied in the tonal sense? Just like in Beethoven's Pathetique Sonata, even if he brings back the introduction material, he begins it in G minor instead of C minor. But this is subjective. It should be Ab major for the statement of the 2nd subject before the recap and I like that section, but find the transition back to recapitulation quite abrupt with only a timpani linking it by means of common tone C in b.339. Maybe if there's a struggle between the two keys with C minor emerges as the victor will be great, but again this is personal.

10 hours ago, Camfrtt said:

About this subject, I must say that it was completely deliberate. I did not want the recapitulation to last for too long as the real Climax was, for me, reached within the Cadenza section. I also did not want to tire the listener with the restatement of themes that had been heard so many times in the Exposition/development (even tho all of them are present in the recapitulation). To be completely honnest, I took inspiration from Rach 2, where the recapitulation is also a bit rushed.

Yeah I find the recap of Rach 2 rushed too. For me you can begin the 1st subject of the recapitulation with different ways other than repeating the procedure in exposition, for example you can have voice exchange and different combination of timbres. But again this is personal since I myself am used to having the recapitulation developed differently other than restatement of themes in different keys. I just feel like the emotional power minimized in the recapitulation due to the shorter length and preparation. 

10 hours ago, Camfrtt said:

In any case, thanks for commenting on that post. Your message are always welcomed as they really push me into trying to improve my music. The 2nd movement of this concerto is already finished, and I posted it on this forum. If you have time and envy, would you consider giving your opinion about it? I composed it this summer and consider it far more mature than this movement and it is, for now, my favorite.

For sure I will listen to the second movement and hopefully review it if I have time!! I won't miss wonderful music like yours! I really enjoy this movement, thank you for sharing!

Henry