What key is this in?

I've been listening to some of my favorite video game music again 😕 so this almost belongs in the other thread.  But, I stumbled upon this on Youtube while listening to the original Star Fox music and I couldn't figure out what key it's in.  I downloaded a midi file which I will make available to you here if you care to analyze it.  I hear the flute melody when it comes in as being in A minor (while also touching on Eb minor) but the bass is doing something totally different.  Is this a case of polytonality or chord substitution or what?  What do you think?

training-mission.mid

Very cool, I love game music but didn't have starfox growing up haha. Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Final Fantasy games...just didn't get to hear this one. 

It is definitely strange in harmony, interesting you heard A minor. I heard G tonality for the most part, it sounded like G split harmony, like the fanfare upper parts were G major (pentatonic?), but there was some clever use of mode mixture, mostly eluding to Gm. For instance, once the bass starts playing:     

G     |Bb     |A     |C  B Bb A|

...it kinda gives it a split chord type of feel to me (G Bb B D)

I was so interested in that concept I wrote a whole piano piece with that being the "home" chord a while back. Cool stuff, thanks for sharing!

@Thatguy v2.0 Did you check out the midi?  Or did you just do this whole analysis by ear? LoL

The midi is also notated in G major so there's that.  The thing is - when the flute melody comes in (starting on E) my ear automatically assumes it's the fifth of a chord because I don't hear it as a tonic nor a 3rd (I guess because of the bass).  Also - I've learned to whistle this melody pretty consistently since I discovered it and it does end on an A which to me feels like it finally resolves all the chromaticism with that note.  By itself the melody also sounds to me like it's in A minor so I would interpret the bass as a kind of cool sub-tonic chord substitution/non-harmonic bass tone but then the bass goes to that Bb while the flute melody is playing the E's and the B's.  Maybe it's a G minor chord under an E minor chord producing that G split chord type of sonority?

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I was so interested in that concept I wrote a whole piano piece with that being the "home" chord a while back.

I'd be interested in hearing that and if you're interested there's also a discussion about this very topic in the "Create your own mode!" thread somewhere.

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Cool stuff, thanks for sharing!

You're welcome and I'm glad it piqued someone's interest!

18 minutes ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Very cool, I love game music but didn't have starfox growing up haha. Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Final Fantasy games...just didn't get to hear this one.

As a kid I would bike over to Target everyday during the summer to play it.  I got good enough to be able to beat the entire game before the reset timer ran out! LoL

26 minutes ago, PaperComposer said:

The midi is also notated in G major so there's that.  The thing is - when the flute melody comes in (starting on E) my ear automatically assumes it's the fifth of a chord because I don't hear it as a tonic nor a 3rd (I guess because of the bass).  Also - I've learned to whistle this melody pretty consistently since I discovered it and it does end on an A which to me feels like it finally resolves all the chromaticism with that note.  By itself the melody also sounds to me like it's in A minor so I would interpret the bass as a kind of cool sub-tonic chord substitution/non-harmonic bass tone but then the bass goes to that Bb while the flute melody is playing the E's and the B's.  Maybe it's a G minor chord under an E minor chord producing that G split chord type of sonority?

yeah I checked out the midi, it seems to me that in general there's a toying with B and Bb as well as E and Eb, just giving a savvy unstable and questing atmosphere based around G. You could probably look at this a number of ways, but that's just what I hear 😄

26 minutes ago, PaperComposer said:

I'd be interested in hearing that and if you're interested there's also a discussion about this very topic in the "Create your own mode!" thread somewhere.

Sure! This was the start of when I started to abandon the idea of major/minor and focused more on all you could do with a tonality (C in this case). 

What a piece!  And what a fitting title!  You never told me you were an adept writer of theme and variations!  Really awesome ideas you've had here.  My favorite variation would probably have to be Variation 6 and 7 (which I just perceive as one variation) with it's hemiolas and high sparkling figurations.  A close 2nd favorite is Variation 18 in 7/4 for its really clever use of fragmentation of the theme (although I guess the theme was already fragmented that way).  It's a really cool way of exploring the unique harmonic possibilities of this theme.

If I have to find something to pick at in this is that I felt like you never really let go of your main melody as a sort of guide for each new variation.  It seemed omnipresent throughout the piece if sometimes cleverly hidden however.  You could have tried to compose a completely new melody in one of your variations that would nonetheless be related to your original material through harmony or character.

Nice job overall!  A tremendously exhaustive piece!

Glad you liked it! 

23 hours ago, PaperComposer said:

If I have to find something to pick at in this is that I felt like you never really let go of your main melody as a sort of guide for each new variation.  It seemed omnipresent throughout the piece if sometimes cleverly hidden however.  You could have tried to compose a completely new melody in one of your variations that would nonetheless be related to your original material through harmony or character

I agree, I toyed with ideas of changing key and such but I think I was mostly focused on making it a seamless piece without the usual obvious cadences at the end of every variation. I'm glad you noticed the theme intertwined with the transitions! 

I don't know that I would think of this as being in a "key" per se. It sounds to me more like the harmony is organized around transposing similar chord structures and shaping the melody around scales that fit those chord structures. I'm curious where you got the midi file for this? There is a spot or two where I question it's accuracy...

If I look at m.2-5, the bass is sitting on G while the Horns and "Baroque Trumpet" (whatever that is lol) are all playing notes that fit into either a G mixolydian or G dorian scale. There is no B or Bb present, so it's ambiguous which it could be here, but I would suppose this ambiguity is the effect the composer was going for.

m.6-7 is where I question the accuracy of the midi file a little bit. At a first glance it appears that the harmony is just shifting between different Maj7 chords in first inversion. Starting on Cmaj7 on the downbeat of m.6, then moving the Dmaj7 on the upbeat of the second beat, Ebmaj7 on the downbeat of m.7, and finally Fmaj7 on the upbeat of the second beat. The only thing that throws this off is the bass plays an F natural instead of F# on upbeat of m.6, while the rest of the ensemble is playing F#'s. If the bass were playing an F#, it would fit the pattern.

M.12-15 is where things get interesting. Looking at just the trumpets and bass, he shifts between different transpositions of minor triads in first inversion, with a couple of major triads in first inversion in m.15. The sequence is Em, Gm, F#m, Amaj, Abmaj, Fm. If I look at m.12-13, every note that is played between the Piccolo, Trumpet and bass in within the G half-whole octatonic scale (G G# A# B C# D E F). In m.14 he then uses the A half-whole octatonic scale (A A# C C# D# E F# G) to match the F#m chord, the only oddball is the F natural in the piccolo. In m.15 he uses the C# whole-half octatonic (C# D# E F# G A Bb Cnatural) and the C whole-half (C D Eb F F# G# A B) over the Amaj and Abmaj respectively, and finally the Ab half-whole over the Fm (Ab A B C D Eb F Gb Ab) M.12-15 is a repeat of m.8-11.

M.16-21 appears to be stepwise movements of Fmaj/G in m.16-17, Gmaj/A in m.18-19, and Amaj/B in m.20-21. Notice the stepwise movement in the bass that leads to the C in m.22.

M.22-25 alternates between two different mixolydian textures, first on C, then on B. The cycle then repeats starting at m.26. I think the mixolydian serves as kind of a cadential point to make it feel like the whole piece is about to resolve back to the start. The mixolydian mode has always had a cadential feel to me, likely since it associated with the V in tonal harmony, so I think it tends to serve the same cadential function here, even though in the end it resolves to a chord on G instead of an F or E you would expect from C7 or B7.

The above is just the way I look at it, and not necessarily the "correct" analysis. My point is that there is a lot of music that doesn't fit into the traditional idea of a "key". When I think of something as being in G major, I expect to find chord progressions like ii V I and V IV I that emphasize G as the tonic, which I don't find here. 

Hope this helps. Feel free to point out any errors in my analysis.

4 hours ago, gmm said:

so I think it tends to serve the same cadential function here, even though in the end it resolves to a chord on G instead of an F or E you would expect from C7 or B7.

But it does resolve to E minor in first inversion with the G in the bass!  And the C7 could be interpreted as a secondary dominant tritone substitution of F#7.

Quite an exhaustive analysis there mr. overachiever!  😜

6 hours ago, PaperComposer said:

But it does resolve to E minor in first inversion with the G in the bass! 

It looks like it resolves to this chord:

You could consider this an appoggiatura to an Em7 in first inversion later in the measure. However, it's kind of hard (for me at least) to hear this as being in E minor/G major with the F naturals I keep hearing throughout the next several bars.

This point aside, does the rest of my analysis at least make a little sense? Like I said, its just "one" analysis and not necessarily the "correct" one. Just looking at the above, I have a hard time thinking the composer thought of each and every harmony he used having some functional relationship to G major. For me, it's a little easier to interpret it more ambiguously. 

6 hours ago, PaperComposer said:

And the C7 could be interpreted as a secondary dominant tritone substitution of F#7.

Yes this is true, good point.

6 hours ago, PaperComposer said:

Quite an exhaustive analysis there mr. overachiever!  😜

Well...you asked 😁. I could talk all day about this kind of thing.

5 hours ago, gmm said:

This point aside, does the rest of my analysis at least make a little sense? Like I said, its just "one" analysis and not necessarily the "correct" one. Just looking at the above, I have a hard time thinking the composer thought of each and every harmony he used having some functional relationship to G major. For me, it's a little easier to interpret it more ambiguously.

It makes plenty of sense - I just can't keep myself from hearing the melody as doing it's own independent thing apart from the rest of the piece (the flute melody in measures 12-15).