Noob with some questions

Hello, new here.

I'm 14 years old, i've been playing guitar for 2-3 years. I primarily play rock/metal but have recently moved onto classical guitar and also getting into jazz but thats for another time.

I'm going to do my grade 8 classical guitar next june and my guitar teacher has told me that i can play one of my own compositions provided it is of sufficient difficulty.

How would i go about this? I can write counterpoint in three voices fairly well, I have a thourogh understanding of theory and can grasp anything new i may need to with no real difficulty.

Thanks in advance, Mark

EDIT: Check out my myspace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=103183202

Hello, new here.

I'm 14 years old, i've been playing guitar for 2-3 years. I primarily play rock/metal but have recently moved onto classical guitar and also getting into jazz but thats for another time.

I'm going to do my grade 8 classical guitar next june and my guitar teacher has told me that i can play one of my own compositions provided it is of sufficient difficulty.

How would i go about this? I can write counterpoint in three voices fairly well, I have a thourogh understanding of theory and can grasp anything new i may need to with no real difficulty.

Thanks in advance, Mark

EDIT: Check out my myspace: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=103183202

Hello Mark, and welcome to the forums:)

I also play classical guitar, so I think I may be able to help you depending on what you need to know.

so what's the most difficult piece you can play right now?

so what's the most difficult piece you can play right now?

Yup, I think that's the most important thing to consider now. Find out what you can play, then compose around that. If you aim for something that you could play, but would be a challenge to learn, you'll have a good base.

Really Chris? Not bad man

for me it's Leyenda by Isaac Albeniz, but I've almost got that mastered, but I think that we should let Mark tell us what his is so we can help him

So, Mark, what is it?

I don't know about the most difficult thing, I've not been playing classical that long so my repetior is fairly limited. I can play something called Etruscan preludes which is pretty challenging, I'm not sure about the composer. Technique is not really a problem as i know from my shredding days that i can learn anything i want (within reason) provided i practice enough.

What i'm really thinking about is the strucure and form of what i need to write and the theory behind writing it. I'm quite into Bach and I've analysed some of his Inventions and would like to possible start with something along those lines. Any pointers on this?

Cheers, Mark

Wow, Mark. 2~3 years and you're grade 8?

Wow.

*hides away in shame*

Maybe just me, but I never really liked the grade thing, ok may be god. But really not verey good way to learn.

And i hate people who focus on these flipping grades 24/7.

*sorry about my outrage, but every time i see the word grade in musical meaning, I flip**

:P

Maybe just me, but I never really liked the grade thing, ok may be god. But really not verey good way to learn.

And i hate people who focus on these flipping grades 24/7.

*sorry about my outrage, but every time i see the word grade in musical meaning, I flip**

:P

i agree, i dont see much point in it all but if i want to make any decent money teaching i have to teach grades so i may as well.

with my teacher we dont really focus on the syllabus, he just teaches me what i need to know and we talk about other things.

Mark

I don't know about the most difficult thing, I've not been playing classical that long so my repetior is fairly limited. I can play something called Etruscan preludes which is pretty challenging, I'm not sure about the composer. Technique is not really a problem as i know from my shredding days that i can learn anything i want (within reason) provided i practice enough.

What i'm really thinking about is the strucure and form of what i need to write and the theory behind writing it. I'm quite into Bach and I've analysed some of his Inventions and would like to possible start with something along those lines. Any pointers on this?

Cheers, Mark

My suggestion is to take the pieces your most interested, and copy them by hand onto a seperate sheet of paper, my teacher tells me that that's a good way to see how they composed the piece. But if you have questions about theory just ask one of us and I'm sure we'd probably be able to help.

when i looked at Bach's invention in c major i decided to take asubject of my own and do with it exactly what Bach did in terms of what he did with the subject - inversion, augmentation, diminuation, modulation. I posted this on another forum and someone told me that it was "harmonically weak". I'm not sure what was meant by this and the arsehole - sorry person - in question didn't bother to explain what he meant and make any attempt to help me correct this.

Here is the piece in question:

I'd appreciate if you could give it a listen and possibly help understand what he meant.

Thanks, Mark

when i looked at Bach's invention in c major i decided to take asubject of my own and do with it exactly what Bach did in terms of what he did with the subject - inversion, augmentation, diminuation, modulation. I posted this on another forum and someone told me that it was "harmonically weak". I'm not sure what was meant by this and the arsehole - sorry person - in question didn't bother to explain what he meant and make any attempt to help me correct this.

Here is the piece in question:

I'd appreciate if you could give it a listen and possibly help understand what he meant.

Thanks, Mark

Well maybe you just should have asked him what he meant. And something does seem a little amiss, I think it's your lack of variety in the Harmony, it's basically the same throughout about 90% of the piece. I think that you do sort of take influence from Bach with this piece, just a little.

My advice would be to completely forget what Bach wrote, and remember what he DID with the piece, that way you can avoid sounding alot like other composers. Put your idea on a piece of paper, twist it turn it, rewrite every note if needed, and just keep manipulating it until it comes out good

just my advice

i did ask him but i never got a reply, i also sent him two PMs incase he missed the post but no replie, i expect he was just trying to sound clever. Not to sound idiotic here but how does one vary the harmony?

Cheers, Mark

It's not idiotic to ask if you don't know

Variation in the harmony involves alot of things, you could borrow a chord or a few scales from related keys, and since your piece is in C major, I personally would spice it up by maybe moving to Em or B major. A key change adds alot of depth to a piece, and it opens up plethoras of availability for variation in the harmony and melody. that's just one thing out of tons of stuff you could do, it's all your choice in the end

i did modulate a bit, through G major, D minor and A minor, F major and back to C major but it evidently did not have the desired affect. When listening i can detect a lot of tension in measure 10 which i hoped would create some interest and measure 13 sounds very Am to me, but i'm not sure if that would be considered 'harmonic interest'.

Mark

Try this, mix up your chords, add some notes from related keys into chords in your tonic Key, you may get the desired effect then

sorry, more noobing

I don't actually know how to make it follow a chord progession, could anyone explain this in a bit more detail for me please? I understand how chord progressions and cadences work but i don't know how to make it follow a progressionwhile still keeping the subject in mind.

Thanks, Mark

This is a marvelous discussion. Writing inventions patterned after those of Bach is a marvelous way to improve your musical sensiblities.

I will start with Mark's invention. Mark, when the person from the other forum told you your piece was harmonically 'weak,' I believe he was referring to harmony on the micro level instead of the macro level. What do I mean by this? Well, look at the sheet music to your invention. Pick any two bars in the middle of the piece. As long as these bars are not modulatory bars, they probably center around some "key center" - perhaps they all center around D minor. Now from the big-picture level, your piece does make, in chunks, a nice harmonic progression. (This is only fitting because you patterned it after Bach, who was a master of that sort of thing.)

Now let's look at your piece on a micro level. Pick a bar that is at the beginning of a phrase (not the imitative phrase about 2/3 of the way through). Now look at a single instant in that bar - say beat 2, or beat 3. What is happening at that very moment? Do the notes stack up to form a harmony that is recognizable to your ear? Does that moment, that instantaneous harmony, make sense? What about in context of the other instantaneous moments immediately around it? I think in the case of your invention the answer to most of these questions is no.

But for perfect examples of what I'm talking about we can always return to Bach. Open up to any Bach invention and check out his harmonic structure on the micro level. Every moment, every eighth note, makes sense when you look at it vertically, both on its own and in the context of the other vertical moments around it.

It is extremely difficult to write a good two-part invention because you have to have an eye on both the details and the big picture at the same time. Many composers I know have the opposite problem: they can write things that make sense from up close but from far away the piece is boring or directionless.

To directly answer your final question (everything I've written above has something to do with the answer), chord progressions are again extremely difficult to pull off in two-part invention music, precisely because you only have two voices and you have to somehow give the impression of chords, which have three or more voices. How the hell do you do that? By implying it. For example, you could have the following:

d-c-b-a 16th notes in right hand

b - g 8th notes in left hand

Even though there are only ever two notes sounding at any given time, this moment would imply a G major chord. Why? Look at the notes on the downbeat and on the 8th note: you have d-b and b-g. (The rest are just passing tones.) These notes together form G major.

That's an example of the kind of eye for detail you have to have when you're writing a two-part invention. I would say at this point to go through as many of Bach's inventions as you care to and perform a harmonic analysis, with your attention placed on how Bach implies chords with only two voices.

And good luck!

If anything I've said is unclear, by all means ask and I'll try to explain it in a different way.

thanks aerlinndan, that makes a lot of sense. Can anyone suggest something pehaps easier to write than an invention? (preferably with something i can look at by Bach)

Thanks, Mark

nicely explained aerlinndan, you kind of repeated some things I said indirectly. and I also agree that looking at one of Bach's inventions is a good way to sharpen your skill as a composer, but it's also good to start with something simple, even Bach's Minuet No. 1 from the Notebook of Anna Magdelena Bach is an excellent piece to study for ideas on harmony. But remember this Mark, Do Not Ever exactly copy the ideas of Bach, not only is this plagarising in a way, it also destroys your ability to create ideas on your own.

And I would suggest as an easier work to look at would be the above mentioned Minuet No. 1

(If you have any questions as to classical guitar playing and technique, just PM me and I'd be glad to help)

is this the minuet you are referring to?

http://www.8notes.com/scores/2944.asp?ftype=sib

Thanks, Mark

thanks aerlinndan, that makes a lot of sense. Can anyone suggest something pehaps easier to write than an invention? (preferably with something i can look at by Bach)

Thanks, Mark

If you are looking for something "easier" to write, perhaps you shouldn't try to emulate someone like Bach. Others might disagree with me here, but understanding Bach's work for one who is just learning to compose music is like signing up for calculus before taking algebra. Perhaps this analogy is a little off base, but Bach's music is very sophisticated, and typically involves complexities that exist simultaneously on a number of levels. Taking one or two of these levels out of the equation in your own compositions will make things much easier on you, helping you to focus on, and thus hone specific skills.

For instance, consider something like an Alberti type of bass line for your guitar composition. This will force you to remain stylistically consistent, let you concentrate more on your melodic ideas, and not have to worry quite as much about some of the micro-counterpoint issues.

M

is this the minuet you are referring to?

http://www.8notes.com/scores/2944.asp?ftype=sib

Thanks, Mark

yes, that's the one, or, you could try the Rondo Alla Turka by Mozart, anyways, good luck

Will

For instance, consider something like an Alberti type of bass line for your guitar composition. This will force you to remain stylistically consistent, let you concentrate more on your melodic ideas, and not have to worry quite as much about some of the micro-counterpoint issues.

M

This seems like a good idea, but wouldn't this be very impractical for a guitar player?

This seems like a good idea, but wouldn't this be very impractical for a guitar player?

The key here is to modify the line such that it fits the left hand well. Sor Study #1 is a good example of what I'm talking about. Another way to approach the same idea would be to think of a banjo/blue-grass approach to finger-picking and work the melody in with the i and m fingers.