Bassoon Sonata

Hello again! I'm enjoying writing music more and more, and your feedback is always great! This is the first movement of a bassoon sonata I wrote in the hope, after the pandemic, to play it together with a bassoonist friend. I think it could be performed with a cello, also. Please, let me know your thoughts and... constructive criticism very welcome! Ciao

Hi! Thank you so much for listening and taking the time to write! Of course I'm hurt 🙂 Just kidding, it's very good criticism. I think as a total amateur (it's the third thing I write) I have only a vague idea of the form (First theme in E flat, go to B flat somehow and change up the rhythm for the second theme, close, creative development - something contrapuntal, go back to first theme in E flat and stay there till the end). I *think* overall the form is OK, but the steps within... you are correct that I am not sure how to go where I want to go. Sometimes I can "hear" the harmonic progression that I then try to capture on paper, but often it's trial and error, which I think results in a meandering feeling for the listener. And also perhaps for fear of abusing of a kind listener's patience I "go to fast" making it actually difficult and messy to follow. 

As per the advice of "listening as you never heard it before", I find it as necessary as it is for me impossible to follow it!

I do have a second movement, which I post here and that I hope will be easier to follow! Thanks again for listening and especially for commenting!

I like the 2nd movement!  It's quite effective as a slow movement and I don't usually like slow movements.  Everything, including the piano accompaniment stays pretty simple for the most part.  You attempt to introduce a more virtuosic variation of the material in the bassoon at meas. 54 which I feel could be brought out more and elaborated upon more.  If it were my piece I would probably have subjected the material to a theme and variations treatment but that's just me.  Your phrases are quite unusual in this and end up in unexpected places.  Also it seems like the melody line should be more lyrical and song-like somehow.  There certainly is plenty of tension and release in your phrases and dynamics that highlight that.  Overall, an enjoyable if brooding piece!  Thanks for sharing!

Thank you so much @PeterthePapercomPoser for your kind words. I agree that meas. 54 ff could have been elaborated upon more. Hope I'm not abusing anyone's patience, but would love to get more feedback on the first two movements and on the third movement, attached here... Sonata per Fagotto 3. Allegro.mp3

I am in love with 2:18 onward, 3:00 onward  is also beautiful, I like that repeated motif (forgive me if I used that word incorrectly) from earlier on (m. 1-4, 36-39) that you repeated in measure 100. That contrasting rhythm between the bassoon and piano in some places is also quite nice. I also really enjoyed that timing switch there from 4/4 to 3/4, it gives the piece some variety, very nice to the ears. I am the last person you'd want to ask for music advice, but I hope that helps. I think you are a wonderful composer, I'd love to hear more of your work, keep it up!

Oh wow @GospelPiano12, thank you. That is so nice! I mean, I'm all for open, honest, constructive criticism, but to instead read such nice compliments about one's music... I'm not gonna lie, it feels really great 🙂 I think that the third movement is "simpler" than the first one, and that seems the way to go... Thanks again for listening and taking the time to write such a nice message!

You're welcome, I mean I do agree with other some of the earlier comments. Like in the first movement, I was thinking the same thing as @Pierre dbss with the lack of structure and movement. I wanted to focus on the positive and let you know my compliments instead of criticisms. Overall, this piece in it's entirety is very nice, I could see this being played at a concert hall or something, especially the last two movements. We're all here here to encourage you, just keep composing.

I actually thought it was fine and well formed. Interesting harmonic progressions and harmony. Seems you're fairly practiced in CPP. It has a late 18th century feel to it, at times reminding me of Cimarosa. (His Oboe Concerto is roughly the same length.) I don't know if it's a live performance - it could be but there are giveaways that it isn't, like the long phrases for the bassoon without a breathing space (in the opening bars). The dynamic range is pretty good anyway. My only crit is that the Bassoon could be just a tiny bit more to the front. It sounds as if the piano is nearest the mike (whether live or not).

I make the point about live performance because a short while ago a composer posted his piece here and I was sure it was musescore or some such with untreated samples. Turns out it was live, recorded on his phone as that was all he had for recording!!

Well done anyway,

Cheers

Q

14 hours ago, Quinn said:

I actually thought it was fine and well formed. Interesting harmonic progressions and harmony. Seems you're fairly practiced in CPP.

Thank you very much!! But it's only my third attempt at writing a Sonata and I'm not sure what you are referring to with "CPP"?

14 hours ago, Quinn said:

It has a late 18th century feel to it, at times reminding me of Cimarosa. (His Oboe Concerto is roughly the same length.)

This is a great compliment, thanks a lot!

14 hours ago, Quinn said:

I don't know if it's a live performance - it could be but there are giveaways that it isn't, like the long phrases for the bassoon without a breathing space (in the opening bars). The dynamic range is pretty good anyway.

It's Noteperformer. I have written for bassoon because a friend's girlfriend plays the instrument, so I'm hoping at some point when the stars align we'll be able to play it (hence the fingering in the piano part of the first movement).

Thanks for the observation about the breathing. May I ask if you noticed more instances of phrases that are too long to play for the bassoon?

17 hours ago, Pierre dbss said:

Actually, it seems to me like you and I are opposites: I’m always finding interesting melodies, small 8-bar phrases that sound really well, but I have trouble organizing them into large works. I thought exactly the opposite hearing your first movement, in particular: it’s like you knew exactly where you were going, but didn’t really sort out the bar-to-bar detail too much. Anyway, congrats for your new movements, and completing such a long piece! It’s always an achievement.

 

 

Thank you for listening and commenting and for the kind words!

Maybe since we are opposites we should try and collaborate 🙂

22 hours ago, GospelPiano12 said:

We're all here here to encourage you, just keep composing.

 

You are so very nice, thanks so much! I have discovered that I enjoy composing during lockdown last spring, and I think I'm going to continue because it is extremely relaxing and rewarding. This forum has been GREAT for feedback, motivation and inspiration.

1 hour ago, Giacomo925 said:

Thank you for listening and commenting and for the kind words!

Maybe since we are opposites we should try and collaborate 🙂

 

I would definitely love to hear that collab!

5 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Thank you very much!! But it's only my third attempt at writing a Sonata and I'm not sure what you are referring to with "CPP"?

CPP - Common Practice Period: traditional harmonic practices. You've done well, taking it into a slightly more modern setting and adding a few "accented passing notes" and allowable dissonances here and there.

Examples. The bassoon part in bars 3 & 4 moving from the G to the Bb. The Ab is an unaccented passing note so it's clash with the piano G is fine. The A natural in bar 4 effectively forms a modulation leading to the Bb chord, an imperfect cadence. It turns an F minor chord into F major.

Bar 13, 3rd beat. The bassoon F is an appoggiatura (as they call it, an accented passing note (not of itself part of the harmony)) falling to the Eb to fit the piano harmony. The piano in the same beat touches a high C, a 6th in the chord.

Another clever appoggiatura in bar 62, the bassoon A nat'l against the Bb piano chord, 'stealing' (as they say) from the Bb that follows.

You seem to have an ear for this sort of effect. Adds much interest. What tipped me you've had at least a brush with CPP was your use of these effects and the way you handle modulation, if you don't mind me saying so. 

Edit: I do hope you get a chance to hear it performed and possibly recorded for your portfolio. A little Tascam would do but even the phone is better than nothing!

11 hours ago, Quinn said:

CPP - Common Practice Period: traditional harmonic practices. You've done well, taking it into a slightly more modern setting and adding a few "accented passing notes" and allowable dissonances here and there.

 

Yes! And your examples are on point, (mostly) deliberate on my part. The story is that I was a music student (piano) many many years ago (I guess I am a *young* composer only at heart 🙂 ), and part of the curriculum was a "elementary harmony" exam whose topics correspond, by and large, to CPP (four-part harmony, modulation, some chromatism). About a year ago, in lockdown and a little bored I brushed up on the harmony textbook and started reading it, doing exercises etc. I figured I could write the exercises on the computer, and then realized I could have fun arranging them for the orchestra, and expanding them a bit. Then it struck me that I could try to write my own thing, so I did. And I've been having fun, albeit at a slow pace, doing it since then.

11 hours ago, Quinn said:

Examples. The bassoon part in bars 3 & 4 moving from the G to the Bb. The Ab is an unaccented passing note so it's clash with the piano G is fine. The A natural in bar 4 effectively forms a modulation leading to the Bb chord, an imperfect cadence. It turns an F minor chord into F major.

Bar 13, 3rd beat. The bassoon F is an appoggiatura (as they call it, an accented passing note (not of itself part of the harmony)) falling to the Eb to fit the piano harmony. The piano in the same beat touches a high C, a 6th in the chord.

Another clever appoggiatura in bar 62, the bassoon A nat'l against the Bb piano chord, 'stealing' (as they say) from the Bb that follows.

It's interesting that you pick these examples, because that is (bars 3-4 and 62) an element that I tried to make somewhat "structural" in the piece. The Ab-A-Bb chromatic passage in bar 4 comes back in bar 20 accompanying the ending of what will become the main 4-note theme in the development; in bar 32 (descending) embellishing the bridge passage when given to the piano, esp in bar 43 in the second theme, further stressed by the fermata; in bar 62 as appoggiatura; and esp in bar 94 to culminate the development with the augmented 4-note theme in the high register of the bassoon leading to the V of Eb to conclude development.

Thank you for looking at the score so carefully! I also hope to have a recording of this at some point.

I know this has nothing to do with the wonderful music of @Giacomo925, but I attempted to transcribe a vocal recording. I'm not sure about my rhythms, so if you can correct it and explain it that would be great. Thanks

On 5/8/2021 at 5:34 AM, GospelPiano12 said:

I know this has nothing to do with the wonderful music of @Giacomo925, but I attempted to transcribe a vocal recording. I'm not sure about my rhythms, so if you can correct it and explain it that would be great. Thanks

 

where can we find it?

I uploaded it to both the Choral/Vocal and Piano sections.

Hi @Giacomo925,

I've just listened to the first movement. I find it really enjoyable and I don't get lost at all. I love its rhythm and energy in it, it keeps the flow moving forward. I don't find it complicated at all: the structure is clearly a ternary one. I enjoy the counterpoint in it and love the interactions between bassoon and piano. It's not a monotonous piece for the showoff of the bassoon, but rather the two instruments cover each other really well. The style for me, as Quinn noted, is a classical one. I enjoy the harmonic language in it! Thanks for sharing and I will listen to the remaining movements!

Henry

On 5/3/2021 at 3:18 AM, Giacomo925 said:

I do have a second movement, which I post here and that I hope will be easier to follow! Thanks again for listening and especially for commenting!

I love the second movement too, if not better. With a simpler texture, the colour of bassoon is more displayed here. I enjoy the minor tonality here and I find it well suited to the timbre of bassoon since it's darker here. Very enjoyable movement.

I enjoy the third movement as well. I think it's simpler than the first movement (that said, first movement is not complicated either). It definitely fits the classical scheme when the weight is put more to the first movement while the last movement normally ends with a less weighted form and passages. For the color of the bassoon here, though it is less distinguished in the second movement, I think it's fine since the character of this movement does not require the high register. The only thing I am not sure about is the balance of structure. I see the f minor middle section enters in b.52 and ends at b.99. The last section returns to E flat major but it only last 17 bars from b.100 to 117. I find it too short to outbalance the middle sections, thus the confiramtion of the tonic key is not strong for me. I would extend the last section to provide a firmer ending. But overall this movement and the whole sonata is very enjoyable. Thanks for sharing!!

Henry

A bassoon sonata is a larger-scale work for bassoon, usually with keyboard accompaniment. Most bassoon sonatas are substantial, multi-movement works, often based on Classical sonata form. Bassoon sonatinas, by comparison, tend to be shorter works, often in a single movement.

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Wow! These are such nice comments, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu. Thank you SO much for taking the time to listen. I've listened to parts of your work posted here - the quintett is amazing, the parentheses is also so so good, as is the pastorale. You have such great command of harmony, form and the way you intertwine ideas and melodies (esp in the quintett) is quite beautiful. I like that there is a rather constant sense of longing and melancholy in the music, and the times when this is lifted shine of a very intense light. I'll try and listen more and more carefully and offer more detailed comments on your posts. Thanks again for listening and for your kind words (btw I agree on the imbalance in the 3rd mov of the sonata, it didn't occur to me before: it does need a longer coda).

On 1/11/2023 at 8:17 AM, Henry Ng Tsz Kiu said:

I enjoy the third movement as well. I think it's simpler than the first movement (that said, first movement is not complicated either). It definitely fits the classical scheme when the weight is put more to the first movement while the last movement normally ends with a less weighted form and passages. For the color of the bassoon here, though it is less distinguished in the second movement, I think it's fine since the character of this movement does not require the high register. The only thing I am not sure about is the balance of structure. I see the f minor middle section enters in b.52 and ends at b.99. The last section returns to E flat major but it only last 17 bars from b.100 to 117. I find it too short to outbalance the middle sections, thus the confiramtion of the tonic key is not strong for me. I would extend the last section to provide a firmer ending. But overall this movement and the whole sonata is very enjoyable. Thanks for sharing!!

Henry

 

4 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Thank you SO much for taking the time to listen

You have no need to thank me, since I enjoy so much in your works. It's lucky for me to find your works!

4 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

I've listened to parts of your work posted here - the quintett is amazing, the parentheses is also so so good, as is the pastorale. You have such great command of harmony, form and the way you intertwine ideas and melodies (esp in the quintett) is quite beautiful. I like that there is a rather constant sense of longing and melancholy in the music, and the times when this is lifted shine of a very intense light. I'll try and listen more and more carefully and offer more detailed comments on your posts.

Thank you for taking your time lisening my pieces! I agree that the quintet is a better piece since it's a much more recent one and I am happy it shows my development as a composer! Please just take your time to comment since the quintet is such a long piece of work🙄, I have way too many things to tell. I am very grateful to your appreciation! I will take my time to review your other pieces as well if I am freer!

Henry