String Quartet Movement: Octatonic, Op. 8

This is a string quartet that I composed for a school assignment featuring the Messiaen's modes. The scale I utilised was the octatonic scale, which I found particularly interesting as it sounded like half of it was in one key and the other half in another distant key. Feel free to leave some feedback! 

Note: This is not one of my main works that I am composing so it is still not fully polished, so keep that in mind!

Nice job!  I noticed you occasionally added tones to the whole-half octatonic scale that don't belong (like the G natural in m. 2).  I guess it was important for you to include a natural 5th in there to keep the scale from sounding maybe a bit too augmented or diminished.  Have you tried experimenting with the half-whole octatonic scale?  It has a natural 5th in it as well as a major and a minor 3rd and a b7.  I always preferred that one to the whole-half because of it's lack of a natural 5th.  Anyway - cool result!  It is quite dramatic sounding.  Thanks for sharing!

3 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Nice job!  I noticed you occasionally added tones to the whole-half octatonic scale that don't belong (like the G natural in m. 2).  I guess it was important for you to include a natural 5th in there to keep the scale from sounding maybe a bit too augmented or diminished.  Have you tried experimenting with the half-whole octatonic scale?  It has a natural 5th in it as well as a major and a minor 3rd and a b7.  I always preferred that one to the whole-half because of it's lack of a natural 5th.  Anyway - cool result!  It is quite dramatic sounding.  Thanks for sharing!

 

Yep! The part about adding tones to the whole half octatonic scale was a bit unintentional (that probably slipped past me during my proof-read HAHA) but yea I also felt during the composing period that the added tones really prevented it from sounding a little weird and awkward. Hmm, the half-whole octatonic sounds interesting, I should really try it out! Thanks for your feedback!

On 3/21/2021 at 1:49 PM, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

I noticed you occasionally added tones to the whole-half octatonic scale that don't belong (like the G natural in m. 2).

I agree with this. The harmony created with the instruments played simultaneously felt like it was in the diminished scale, but the overall piece felt like in the minor scale. 

It's only a minute and a half though? You have loads of great ideas and room for development! If a string quartet is your aim, I'd love to see this extended and developed further. Congrats on an experiment (I assume? Have you used this scale before?) well executed! I've heard some of your music before but maybe haven't commented much on it. I'll be sure to look for more of your work. Keep it up! 

21 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

I agree with this. The harmony created with the instruments played simultaneously felt like it was in the diminished scale, but the overall piece felt like in the minor scale. 

Yep, I think it was more subconscious on my part. I was modelling the movement after Shostakovich's String Quartet No.8 2M, which is why they are many parallels to that movement, including the scale of the piece. I think that is one of the drawbacks, my major works are still very tonal and neoromantic in nature so any experimentation could still be very tonal, especially because I decided to break from octatonic scale in the final 2 chords.

21 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

It's only a minute and a half though? You have loads of great ideas and room for development! If a string quartet is your aim, I'd love to see this extended and developed further.

This is actually one of a series of works that I needed to compose for a school assignment, and in particular this assignment was to experiment with Messiaen's scales that he used in his Quartet for the End of Time. So right now, as current academic workload is very intense (final 2 years of schooling before university) and I'm required to put out an experimental composition every week, I only allotted myself 3-4 hours to work on each of these compositions, which unfortunately makes such works very rushed in nature (there are some notation mistakes in the score) and short. And my current focus in composition is on my major works which I am close to finishing one at the moment so do expect it to come out sometime in the future!

21 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Congrats on an experiment (I assume? Have you used this scale before?) well executed! I've heard some of your music before but maybe haven't commented much on it. I'll be sure to look for more of your work. Keep it up! 

Yep this was the first time I used this scale in my works. Thank you so much for the feedback though! I do appreciate it! I may revisit this work in the future and turn it into a full movement and develop the ideas more, but it will have to depend on whether I can see any break in my workload for the next 2 years.

Wow, this is a really cool piece, the rhythm works so well with the harmony. I cannot judge the octatonic nature of it, but surely it sounds great. The 11/8 tempo works really well. I'm just wondering whether it would make sense to play a little more with the 2/8 rhythm at the end of each measure, possibly moving it around to different spots of the measure? Or would it be confusing? (I don't mean for your piece in particular, it is very nice as it is; I was wondering in general). Thank you!

7 hours ago, Giacomo925 said:

Wow, this is a really cool piece, the rhythm works so well with the harmony. I cannot judge the octatonic nature of it, but surely it sounds great. The 11/8 tempo works really well. I'm just wondering whether it would make sense to play a little more with the 2/8 rhythm at the end of each measure, possibly moving it around to different spots of the measure? Or would it be confusing? (I don't mean for your piece in particular, it is very nice as it is; I was wondering in general). Thank you!

 

Yep actually that would also make the worl more interesting! I used it in its current form to make it sound kind of like a modified tresillo rhythm in the 3 3 3 2 subdivision but I get your point. Thanks for your suggestion!

This is really cool. If this was merely an experiment with octatonic scales I would say it is a success.

One thing that jumped out to my ear: in the second bar you use a lot of parallel fifths (see below). One of the special things about the octatonic scale is all of the rich harmonies you can create with all of the third's available. Having this many fifths in a row makes it sound a little stale, at least to me.

What you might consider is raising the second violin by a scale degree so it moves in thirds with the first. You also might consider having the viola and cello play a line contrary to the violins, instead of having them in octaves with the first violin. To me this would maintain the octatonic feel much better. Below is an example I whipped up real quick:

If the parallel fifth's are to your liking feel free to ignore, just my thoughts.

If you want to hear a masterful use of octatonic scale, I'd recommend the opening of the Firebird by Stravinsky. The way he makes use of the major and minor thirds available in the scale, and how he seamlessly shifts between different transpositions of the mode, is remarkable to say the least.

Thanks for sharing!

2 hours ago, gmm said:

This is really cool. If this was merely an experiment with octatonic scales I would say it is a success.

One thing that jumped out to my ear: in the second bar you use a lot of parallel fifths (see below). One of the special things about the octatonic scale is all of the rich harmonies you can create with all of the third's available. Having this many fifths in a row makes it sound a little stale, at least to me.

What you might consider is raising the second violin by a scale degree so it moves in thirds with the first. You also might consider having the viola and cello play a line contrary to the violins, instead of having them in octaves with the first violin. To me this would maintain the octatonic feel much better. Below is an example I whipped up real quick:

 

If the parallel fifth's are to your liking feel free to ignore, just my thoughts.

If you want to hear a masterful use of octatonic scale, I'd recommend the opening of the Firebird by Stravinsky. The way he makes use of the major and minor thirds available in the scale, and how he seamlessly shifts between different transpositions of the mode, is remarkable to say the least.

Thanks for sharing!

 

Wow! I really appreciate the effort in your feedback! Yea I think that this would have been greatly enhanced if I had taken note of the parallel fifths and utilised better voice leading. The solution you whipped up sounds much better! But would there be a way where all 4 parts can adhere to the octatonic scale, because that solution to that would not be following the octatonic scale. Thank you for the feedback though, and I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your feedback!

1 hour ago, Joshua Ng said:

Wow! I really appreciate the effort in your feedback! Yea I think that this would have been greatly enhanced if I had taken note of the parallel fifths and utilised better voice leading. The solution you whipped up sounds much better! But would there be a way where all 4 parts can adhere to the octatonic scale, because that solution to that would not be following the octatonic scale. Thank you for the feedback though, and I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your feedback!

 

You would have to modify the first violin melody, since the G natural is not in the particular transposition of the octatonic scale you used. I just kept that the same between my version and the original since I assumed that was the melody. If you modified that to an F#, it should be pretty straight forward to come up with parts that are all in the scale, since there are so many thirds available. 

Something that I have found works for me with the octatonic scale - try to approach any tritones by contrary motion. Sometimes they sound ok if approached by similar motion, but contrary motion will help the parts sound more independent, at least in my experience. Ultimately your ear is your guide...

3 minutes ago, gmm said:

You would have to modify the first violin melody, since the G natural is not in the particular transposition of the octatonic scale you used. I just kept that the same between my version and the original since I assumed that was the melody. If you modified that to an F#, it should be pretty straight forward to come up with parts that are all in the scale, since there are so many thirds available. 

Something that I have found works for me with the octatonic scale - try to approach any tritones by contrary motion. Sometimes they sound ok if approached by similar motion, but contrary motion will help the parts sound more independent, at least in my experience. Ultimately your ear is your guide...

 

Oh I see, that is true. Thanks for the suggestion!

On 3/21/2021 at 6:01 AM, Joshua Ng said:

string quartet

a one movement string quartet? interesting. no, no, i mean *interesting*, quite in fact.

flesh this baby out with 2 or 3 or 6 more movements? 

extend it and yourself into the world, make it EARN it's opus number, is what I am thinking.

i will be listening if it does, indeed, henceforth arrive.

-Peace (and I am) Out(ta here!)

Hi man, nice piece.

Do what you want. A mode can have passing tones, why not. I don't care about the lenght of the work, it's irrelevant..., it what it is. I don't agree either with the parallel fifths issue, that's a vision of harmony from previos styles. I don't think Messiaen cared about that.

On 3/25/2021 at 6:52 PM, Luis Hernández said:

Hi man, nice piece.

Do what you want. A mode can have passing tones, why not. I don't care about the lenght of the work, it's irrelevant..., it what it is. I don't agree either with the parallel fifths issue, that's a vision of harmony from previos styles. I don't think Messiaen cared about that.

 

Thank you! True, that's another way to look at it. I guess that the parallel fifths can be considered more as planing

On 3/25/2021 at 6:38 PM, AKAChristopher said:

a one movement string quartet? interesting. no, no, i mean *interesting*, quite in fact.

flesh this baby out with 2 or 3 or 6 more movements? 

extend it and yourself into the world, make it EARN it's opus number, is what I am thinking.

i will be listening if it does, indeed, henceforth arrive.

-Peace (and I am) Out(ta here!)

 

Yep! Judging from the positive reviews on the forum, I think I will work this into a full quartet eventually! I'll see if I have the time

1 hour ago, Joshua Ng said:

another way to look

did you just sit down and study study study that scale becoming embued with it to the depths of your musical soul and then let things flow or did you instead think specifically how you wanted to use it and then used it? Or a combination of both?

22 hours ago, AKAChristopher said:

did you just sit down and study study study that scale becoming embued with it to the depths of your musical soul and then let things flow or did you instead think specifically how you wanted to use it and then used it? Or a combination of both?

 

Hmm I think I use a bit of inspiration and just listening to the scale. I actually have a melodic flair, and I'm able to come up with a melody very easily, so I often exploit that to create very memorable motifs and melodies

On 3/24/2021 at 10:52 PM, Joshua Ng said:

this would have been greatly enhanced if I had taken note of the parallel fifths and utilised better voice leading.

maybe, or maybe not, i would say. not sure about your piece specifically.  i have never studied music in a university - well, I took some sort of music appreciation class once to fulfill an elective requirement, choosing one in music so that I could fulfill that elective buy studying MUSIC instead of something else, quite the good show by my college for allowing that, some classmates once asking me to take it easy on a test that was to be graded on a curve in view of the fact that I knew more - but not so much  more - than the jazzes and pop music aficionados in that class happened to know. One thing that I knew, which I'll bet anyone in this thread also knows, and that I type up to refine my thinking a bit on such mattes as well as assuring myself on my ideas - is that the 'prohibition' of parallel fifths (and octaves) grew out of an early desire (requirement actually) to keep  contrapuntal lines separate and not allow then to blend together into undistinguishable lines at any moment of paralell-ness, such knowledge for myself being obtained from study of Fux, Piston, Jeppesen, Mann, Schoenberg. Parallel fifth and octave combos of tones can be quite nice and effective when used in the right way. For instance, when playing through parts of Debussy's "Suite bergamasque"  - those parts NOT concerned with the moon - I found paralell fifths that sound wonderful; Menuet I opening bar.

the above could be thought of as a long winded into this question: what is the common pathway, if any, that is followed these days in achieving a level of compositional ability needed for obtaining the all important degree. Is Bach always intently studied? what else is? 

12 hours ago, AKAChristopher said:

maybe, or maybe not, i would say. not sure about your piece specifically.  i have never studied music in a university - well, I took some sort of music appreciation class once to fulfill an elective requirement, choosing one in music so that I could fulfill that elective buy studying MUSIC instead of something else, quite the good show by my college for allowing that, some classmates once asking me to take it easy on a test that was to be graded on a curve in view of the fact that I knew more - but not so much  more - than the jazzes and pop music aficionados in that class happened to know. One thing that I knew, which I'll bet anyone in this thread also knows, and that I type up to refine my thinking a bit on such mattes as well as assuring myself on my ideas - is that the 'prohibition' of parallel fifths (and octaves) grew out of an early desire (requirement actually) to keep  contrapuntal lines separate and not allow then to blend together into undistinguishable lines at any moment of paralell-ness, such knowledge for myself being obtained from study of Fux, Piston, Jeppesen, Mann, Schoenberg. Parallel fifth and octave combos of tones can be quite nice and effective when used in the right way. For instance, when playing through parts of Debussy's "Suite bergamasque"  - those parts NOT concerned with the moon - I found paralell fifths that sound wonderful; Menuet I opening bar.

the above could be thought of as a long winded into this question: what is the common pathway, if any, that is followed these days in achieving a level of compositional ability needed for obtaining the all important degree. Is Bach always intently studied? what else is? 

 

Interesting insight! I think that it depends on the style and context of the work that you're aiming for. So for example, if you're intending for a more classical/mid romantic piece then I think that the norms that were prevalent back then should take precedence over more modern techniques in that circumstance, whereas works that are intentionally more modern should use modern norms and compositional techniques instead. And considering the piece at hand is pretty modern, I think yea the parallel voice leading is better suited in this particular scenario

a tricky part - not necessarily a "the" - can be if you are explicitly trying to blend two or heck even more styles together in a work and then getting a blend that sounds schizo (IAFTUOTT "i apologize for the use of that term"), like all of them at once instead of only like itself (or like one or more of them at once, achieving only one probably impossible, 2 perhaps easy, 3 or more and then we are back to probably impossible again) probably not what would be shot for in many cases, achieving uniqueness among many. Did Stravinsky succeed in that?

https://www.quora.com/In-what-ways-does-Stravinskys-Pulcinella-diverge-from-Classical-period-composition

3 hours ago, AKAChristopher said:

a tricky part - not necessarily a "the" - can be if you are explicitly trying to blend two or heck even more styles together in a work and then getting a blend that sounds schizo (IAFTUOTT "i apologize for the use of that term"), like all of them at once instead of only like itself (or like one or more of them at once, achieving only one probably impossible, 2 perhaps easy, 3 or more and then we are back to probably impossible again) probably not what would be shot for in many cases, achieving uniqueness among many. Did Stravinsky succeed in that?

https://www.quora.com/In-what-ways-does-Stravinskys-Pulcinella-diverge-from-Classical-period-composition

 

Hmm I am not sure, you could give it a shot