Complete noob: Writing with strings and wind

Can anyone give me, or point me in the direction of, some noob advice on the aforementioned subject?

I've written very little but my harmonic knowledge and voice leading is pretty good. I can pick things up pretty quickly so any more advanced theory isn't really a problem. I just want to know which part would be assigned to which instrument and how to orchestrate a simple melody, with examples if at all possible.

Thanks in advance, Mark

Unfortunately it isn't as simple as that. If you're arranging something you've written at a keyboard, say, that's as much an art as composing because you're translating a piece from one instrument to the idioms of an ensemble.

If you composed the work orchestrally - like a short score (whether or not at a keyboard) but you thought it out orchestrally then you'll already know.

So are you arranging it from a short score?

Writing for real wind instruments, you have to consider a few things like the characteristics of each instrument, where it's weak/strong etc, and the timbre of each register - the clarinet is a case in point.

Writing for midi/sequencer & samples allows you to get away with almost anything but that won't help you much if your ultimate hope is live performance.

Strings, it's a matter of layout. The layout for a quiet passage is different from a loud one. The string sound is fairly homogenous (samey) until you ask for effects like muted/sul pont/sul tasto/spiccato etc etc.

In all cases, layout is important unless you want to end up with hopelessly thick basses and empty textures.

The best way to study scores - there lie your examples. If your music is basically diatonic and you're interested in a small orchestra (two of each woodwind + 2 horns + strings (as they say: 2222 2 + strings)) or something like that, study Beethoven's symphonic writing. You won't go far wrong. You have to learn when and how to dovetail winds, which combine nicely doubling at the unison/octave etc. A tutti (the whole orchestra going) is easier for a small orchestra than one with a big brass section but layout and instrumental assignment still needs care to get the effect you want.

Tell us more...

:laugh:

M

i've written anything for more than three instruments at a time. I'm thinking of writing mainly for a chamber orchestra (one of each instrument, am i correct?)

This isn't like i've written something and i'd like to orchestrate it, i'd just like to learn how to do it for future compositions. Tommorow i shall write a 4 or so bar section (for a keyboard instrument) and post it, do you think you could do what you would do with it so i can study how you have done it?

Thanks very much, Mark

If I can. I don't have notation software so it might take a few days, remembering tomorrow's saturday and I have some work to get done.

A chamber orchestra is whatever you want but smallish. If you're writing for a particular one you'll know what its instruments are. They vary a lot.

If there was such a thing as a standard chamber orchestra, go for 2fl, 2ob, 2Cl, 1 or 2 bassoons and strings. Some have 2 horns. They usually have strings.

Anyway, as long as you realise that my answer won't be the only good one (I may do several) - strikes me you should open the invitation to see what others do.

Great. :laugh:

Ms

You may find this link helpful:

http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/intro.html

If you really would like to learn more about orchestration, there are many books on the subject. I'm not really sure if I could pick just one that I think is the best, but the Samuel Adler "The Technique of Orchestration" has very detailed explanations of strings (though I may be the wrong person to ask, as I play a string instrument.)

thanks for the link calehay, i shall read with interest

not sure how well this would translate to an orchestra but here it is.

It's an alberti bassline on a 1625 progression with some (mainly) contrapunctal ideas on the left hand. I'd like to work with as few instruments as possible to start with, just to get used to all this stuff before venturing into using the whole orchestra.

Anyone who knows anything that might help me please feel free to comment and you could even turn this into an exercise for orchestrating.

Thanks very much, Mark

PS i know i spelt the title wrong but notepad wont let me change it.

can your program not open MUS files? The main gripes i have with notepad are the inability to change/add/remove instruments once you have selected them at the start and the midi incapability. I only use it because it's best free thing i've seen.

not sure how well this would translate to an orchestra but here it is.

It's an alberti bassline on a 1625 progression with some (mainly) contrapunctal ideas on the left hand. I'd like to work with as few instruments as possible to start with, just to get used to all this stuff before venturing into using the whole orchestra.

Anyone who knows anything that might help me please feel free to comment and you could even turn this into an exercise for orchestrating.

You didn't say much about what effect you want but here's my try for the few minutes I had - assume the dynamic is mf:

(Sorry I made a slight change to make it sound stronger, Vc to Va in bar 4. It sounded a bit weak but that could be my arrangement.)

I used muted strings because they were already set up. They don't have to be muted.

For strings only:

http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4472054&q=hi

With the melody on flute interleaved with strings. You could swap the flute for clarinet. The oboe would work except if you're going to crescendo through bar 4, the high E is getting into the oboe's weak register. There are ways around that though.

http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4472065&q=hi

There're many possibilities.

Alberti bass: everyone handles this differently but it's nigh impossible to translate exactly from a piano score, especially if played legato. I assumed legato as you hadn't staccatoed it.

Here's another way, melody partly carried in cellos.

http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4472302&q=hi

Hope this helps, anyway.

M

(let's see if this works. I's having trouble with soundclick. If you're using internet explorer you may have to temporarily unblock the popup to get to it.)

Chris: That sounds very cool, keep working on it.

Montpellier: Could you please post the MUS file of the one with the flute so i can study what you're doing? That (the flute one) is exactly what i was aiming for.

Thanks very much for your time, Mark

Montpellier, cancel that for the time being, i'm going to try and transcribe it.

just to make things slightly easier, what instruments did you use?

Sure, in the first example: vn1 vn2 vla vlc and db. The cellos have almost nothing to do, just touch in points of harmony. I transcribed your piano bass to the double bass an octave below and pizz; the melody was as you wrote it (except for a tiny change), the alberti was played by violins 2 and the violas opened out a bit.

You could substitute the cello pizz for the dbs without losing much.

In the flute one, the basic arrangement is the same except the flute alternates.

Just...well, this won't always work but...the type of melody you wrote would allow a really light texture if you want that. Here's one with just flute(alternate w/violin 1), violin 2 and double bass in these 4 bars.

Try this.

http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=4472767&q=hi

Sorry to say, there's no MUS file, these were run up on a sequencer. If you really want one in notation, there's someone here who'd probably do it. Let us know before tomorrow evening tho.

What, for the theme?

Montpellier, thanks very much for the help you've given me, a MUS file isn't essential, infact i'd probably benifit more from inputing in into notepad myself as i would be looking at every note. Does your sequencer notate it in shape or form? or could you perhaps just post a midi file?

If it's not too much trouble i would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks again, Mark

:thumbsup: I can save the sequence as a midi - trouble is, all the midi channels are set to midi 1, piano. Rather than spend time assigning the tracks (cos I haven't a clue offhand what they are), my chum thought it best to do it on finale not-pad (sheesh, no comment - he's more patient than me). Can't do pizzicato, can't work out how to end with a double-bar-line, can't erase the text profanities we wrote; pink phrase-marks?...what IS this thing?!?!?

You didn't say which example you wanted - here's the last one. Doesn't sound much like the arrangement - had to do staccato for pizz - but you can pick off the notes. If you wanted another one, gi's a shout.

thanks very much, could you possibly do the one with all the strings and flute please? Anyone got any idea on how to make the strings in notpad not sound completely horrible? Montpellier, were you using vst's or samples in your examples?

Hmm, I don't think there is a way of making the notpad strings less horrible - unless you buy finale 2006 where you get a free orchestra...the strings sound just a bit less horrible. I'm not sure if you can do pizz.

The arrangements use 'sort-of' vstis (the seq has a 'program' section that lets you set up a program, allocate samples to each note/zone and save it as an instrument)

In exchange do you know how to make the dynamics work in notpad? We chose p then pp from articulations, and f for the flute but they don't seem to make a damn bit of difference - I'll ask in the techno forum if you don't know. Do you know how to break a beam, like 2 1/8-notes beamed together and I want separate tails?

I can guess the answer already - nope, it doen't work, you have to trade up another $100 to get dynamics (swearing under breath).

Well, here's the arrangement you wanted - truly horrid but true to the notes. The cello should be miles softer.

Ok - pages 1 and 2 are that flute/strings arrangement as notated. Page 3 is a variation on the vn2 vla alberti part.

There're lots of other possibilities.

Boyo! what a **** piece of software.

I dont think the dynamics make any difference at all, purely for show.

Do you know how to break a beam, like 2 1/4-notes beamed together and I want separate tails?

I dont think you can do that either, i'd like to get the full version which has GPO samples and all sorts of other goodies but it's a little expensive for me. Anyone know of any decent freeware fully functioning notation programs? nope, didn't think so, ah well, back to notepad.

Montpellier, i'm getting a much better idea of how this all works, thanks very much.

In fact, would anyone be up for having a pop on something else i wrote this morning while pretending to do my english essay?

It's the start of whats going to be my second duet for flute and guitar but i'd like to if/how anyone would orchestrate.

Thanks, Mark

Hmm, you've hit on an interesting one. The flute is in it's weakest register and would easily be drowned by anything more than pp strings.

If I arranged that I'd either write the tune an octave higher, allocate it to something else or keep the strings VERY in the background and thin, maybe solo strings, muted. Or bass=cello (arco), the rest of the strings pizz or something (maybe the whole lot pizz) - that would help preserve the difference between the sustained sound of the flute and the more percussive effect of the guitar. This is the bit about translating the idiom of the original to a chamber orchestra.

See if anyone else wants to have a go.

M

I'll probably take the flute up an octave for the duet. I might try and arrange it for chamber orchestra if i get time. At the moment i'm working on the piano one we've been looking at, studying your one and applyig some of the same concepts. I'tll probably come out sounding similar as i'm doing it muted bu i'll post on completion, probs during the next hour.

Thanks, Mark

Finished, much sooner than i thought i would, it still sounds a lot like montpellier's but it was bound to, being that i was studying his.

I'm planning on extending this to a concerto, any tips on doing so?

Thanks, Mark

I've arranged the flute and guitar duet for string quartet, no idea if it's theoreticly correct but it sounds ok to me.

Thanks, Mark

Well, there you go! You've spread the parts nicely although it's effectively 3-part harmony.

There's no correct arrangement. It's whether it's what you want.

D'you mind me making a couple of comments?

The double bass doubles the cello at an octave below throughout except the last note, Trouble is, the db sounds pretty thick and ponderous, (fine in an orchestra but it might be obtrusive in this setting in a quartet).

Fine if you want that but for a lighter texture, just delete the db line, move the cello an octave lower (mostly), move its last note to low G and the viola up to high B.

Just something to bear in mind.

It strikes me to suggest writing it for a conventional string quartet (2 violins, viola and cello) because you could get a warmer harmony in 4 parts.

Just suggestions but otherwise fine! Let's see what others think....

:D

M

TBH i didn't actually know what a traditional string quartet was! Thanks for the suggestions, I'll amend it slightley and re-upload when i get home from school.

Mark