Complete noob: Writing with strings and wind

I've redone it for a 'traditional' string quartet, there's one moment when there's a C# in the melody and a B in the bass but it's not that noticeable and the major 6th from the E to the C# really works.

Thanks, Mark

great. The parts are laid out very well, with insight.

You've avoided the trap that some new arrangers fall into of crowding all the notes of a chord close together because that's how they were in the original. When people do that in the bass, it just sound muddy. (Of course, there are times you might want that effect.) Here, you've spaced out the parts fine.

There are times I might have lifted the viola an octave (or almost, by changing the chords slightly with violin 2) just to fill out the middle a bit more but that's just me.

You should feel that you've accomplished something beyond your arrangement from yesterday.

:blush:

M

I've worked a bit on the other theme and come up with (i think slightly aided by the fade out on a few of monty's examples) another theme to go with it.

The sound leaves a lot to the imagination if you're using notepad but i expect it'll sound much better with the dynamics working and the GPO instruents in the full version of finale.

Thanks, Mark

Just an add-on about the quartet, one of the things I liked about it was the overlapping of violins 1 & 2 - it's a device to use sparingly but comes off well here.

I'll have a look at the other piece in a mo.

===

Ok, had a look now. I won't comment on the composition...

The arranging is pretty ok. A couple of comments on page 2: the violas and cellos play the accompanying figure in unison. Is it worth giving them chords in 6ths and 5ths to fill out the texture a bit? Like, after the quaver rests, beginning bar 5, you'd have:

violas...E-C-E....E-C-E|...E-C-E....E-C-E

cellos...G-E-G....G-E-G|...A-E-A...A-E-A etc

bar 7, that's a nice touch, putting vn1 a 3rd above the flute. The entry sounds clear and effective.

page 3: also like the viola doubling the flute an octave below. Adventurous - nice effect.

About the viola part - suggest letting the viola land on (top of stave) A at the start of bar 10, because it's a strong beat. It then continues as you've written. Just means putting the A quaver in. Same in bar 12, landing on the B on beat 1.

Well, you're getting on fine! Excellent.

Just a closing remark about GPO. I've talked about this before but, yes, it has to be good - a lot better than midi/not-pad but don't expect too much of it. The standard sounds sound good but they're limited. Someone was saying there's no staccato on some of the woodwind, so do be sure you really want it before you shell out all that lolly, won't you? :P

Does your school music room have a copy of it?

The Garritan site has some examples on it - they're quite good!

Hope this has been some help, anyway.

:)

M

!Mark!... I understand that you want to write as fast as possible to bigger ensembles as do most of the people here. Personnally, though, if I was a composition teacher you where paying for to have lessons I would counsel (if not simply ask you) to keep to smaller ensembles or even try out to write many short pieces for different instruments.

Each instrument has it's particularities and you must learn them and since you don't have a teacher at home to show you all this, you can relly at least on writing stuff for one or two instruments and learn the qualities and faults of the stuff you write. Writing for too many instruments might cause you to learn more slowly basic stuff like register, timber qualities, phrasing and such. You already made a lot of progress through the first piece, but be wiser than most and grow slowly but strongly.

I find the arrangment you've done with the guys here very nice as I told you precedingly... but now that I hear the source for guitar and flute (the duet number 2)... I feel that your first idea was much more colorful and your first intuition very interesting... you shouldn't forget it too easily.

The critics you had are right about strings eating the flute at that register... BUT... if you keep the work you've done here for the guitar and flute, the flute and the guitar will blend in such a way that it will give a kind of breath to the sound of the guitar... and that shouldn't be discarded to fast. You're playing not with melody there, but with altering the timber of both instruments without realizing it. That first idea is according to me 'genius-like' for a beginner and show's your musical qualities much more than the much more conservative (but very cute and bright - I still say that I like it don't take me wrong) orchestration you've done.

You can work conventional stuff, but don't reject what might make sounds your music unique ! Ok !? String writing is not simple, you should take one or two instrument per month (at least...) MAXIMUM if you wish to learn them well. Read all you can about one instrument before passing to another. You should also ask more help from your guitar teacher to check your guitar parts... There's nothing wrong at 14yo about not having four symphonies written and there is no goal in writing some before you know all the instruments.

The last thing I want is to block your creativity... if you really have to move on bigger ensembles, do it... but at least think a bit on what I'm telling you here ! How does this sounds to you ?!

***

After reviewing my comment I realize that I have make few mistakes... I mixted up the orchestration practice with the duet no2... my fault... I've read a bit fast the the stuff. But anyhow the comments I wrote are meant except that for the orchestration practice... of course it is good that you practice orchestration and beginning with small and medium ensembles are fine... but what you should do if you want to do this is to read about the isntruments before orchestrating for them. If you can't afford book on the subject (these are good X-Mas gifts ideas by the way... if your parents don't know what you should buy, they can contact me with pleasure!) you can find lots of informations on the net on each instruments.

My comment about the 2nd duet was that you shouldn't use flute in the lower register unless you really need it to be so... But as I said, the way you wrote it here will mixt the two instruments into one so that you won't really have one flute accompagnied by a guitar as it was clearly in the other duet. The sounds of the two instruments will tend to merge...

That's already to learn a very important caracteristic of the orchestration to realize that depending on how you place the instruments... the sounds might merge together or clearly stands alone... as you see... you don't need to write for a whole orchestra to learn orchestration... you can even learn orchestration with a single instrument if you listen closely to what you are writing. You have a good ear, follow it more !

I think if you'd read all the posts in this thread you may have saved yourself a lot of typing as much of this was discussed. Like we talked about the lowest register of the flute being its weakest so be very careful it doesn't get drowned out. !Mark! can ask various questions here about the weaks and strongs of instruments, can look up ranges in wikipedia.

Composition is one of those areas where theory and practice should go hand in hand - that's how I'd teach it anyway. It's the same as the original purpose of teaching species counterpoint. It's basically practical.

The problem with "learning" orchestration is being able to practice. It was easy in the days of school orchestras when, all right, one couldn't compose elaborate works but it helped a student understand about balance and layout, especially getting round the imperfections of most school orchestras. (Boyo, did we learn a few lessons too, about cueing and rehearsal marks and how to double what with what to give other instruments a chance in a tutti!) Now, in the UK at least, most schools don't have orchestras so students can't get that head start.

You can learn loads of technical stuff from books - but that doesn't teach you orchestration, which, to me, is part of the composition process. If you don't THINK orchestra, you won't write orchestrally.

Arranging is a bit different because you're basically translating music from one idiom to another. What !Mark! has done here is a move toward both arranging and orchestrating. He seems able to find his own way with a little guidance - and what he's done is take the plunge, do some work and evaluate the results - just a little 4 bar thing but it encapsulated a few ideas that needed resolving. There's a long way to go but several lessons are learned like: there's usually many ways that the scoring can be done, how to lay out the parts to get different textures.

So it's just a question of time and need. He'll come up with something more complicated and may need help again...maybe not.

Precisely because it does go into the issues we've talked about, and does get down to good arranging/orchestrating in a very concise way, I suggest getting a copy of "Orchestral Technique" by Gordon Jacob.

It's excellent for a newcomer.

It's still about and good secondhand copies can be got at a decent price in abebooks, amazon, etc.

It gives details about instrumental ranges. It talks about some special effects, not all, and doesn't deal with obscure instruments. But it's about doing bog-standard orchestration properly. Once you have the feel for that you can take on whatever else you like.

Like a few other things an orchestra epitomises "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts". What Jacob tries to impress is "the whole" rather than the individual parts then get you to add them together (like, for example, Piston's book - a good reference but that's about all).

Anway....

:P

violas...E-C-E....E-C-E|...E-C-E....E-C-E

cellos...G-E-G....G-E-G|...A-E-A...A-E-A etc

M

I just used octaves because i was trying to keep the alberti bass a promient feature' date=' it never occurred to me to just do what i call 'rock harmonising'. I suppose i was under the misguided impression that everything had to be contrapuntal. I must agree what i have now (although just parallel 6ths) sounds a lot better.

!Mark!... I understand that you want to write as fast as possible to bigger ensembles as do most of the people here. Personnally, though, if I was a composition teacher you where paying for to have lessons I would counsel (if not simply ask you) to keep to smaller ensembles or even try out to write many short pieces for different instruments.

This is probably as big an ensemble as i will write for in the conceivable future. I'm not really a fan of big symphonic orchestra's to be honest, i much prefer smaller groups of instruments like the one i used here.

Each instrument has it's particularities and you must learn them and since you don't have a teacher at home to show you all this, you can relly at least on writing stuff for one or two instruments and learn the qualities and faults of the stuff you write. Writing for too many instruments might cause you to learn more slowly basic stuff like register, timber qualities, phrasing and such. You already made a lot of progress through the first piece, but be wiser than most and grow slowly but strongly.

I am planning on continuing to write for flute until i can write a piece that requires no technical correction first time, this may take me some time so i decided to try and start to learn the art of orchestration. I understand this is something that takes years to master so i will keep it up alongside my studies of particular instruments/intsrument groups.

Precisely because it does go into the issues we've talked about' date=' and does get down to good arranging/orchestrating in a very concise way, I suggest getting a copy of "Orchestral Technique" by Gordon Jacob.

It's excellent for a newcomer.

It's still about and good secondhand copies can be got at a decent price in abebooks, amazon, etc.

It gives details about instrumental ranges. It talks about some special effects, not all, and doesn't deal with obscure instruments. But it's about doing bog-standard orchestration properly. Once you have the feel for that you can take on whatever else you like.

Like a few other things an orchestra epitomises "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts". What Jacob tries to impress is "the whole" rather than the individual parts then get you to add them together (like, for example, Piston's book - a good reference but that's about all).[/quote']

Thanks for the advice, i'll look into that with a view to purchasing it.

Montpellier: You said in Chris' post with his symphony that this theme has a lot of scope for development, could you possibly explain in noob terms how one would go about developing a theme?

Wow, long post. Thanks very much everyone, Mark

done another four bars, the inability to hear a change of tempo or dynamics is really quite infuriating.

Mark

Hi there. About the mesures that follow quater=65...

DYNAMICS

Try to note somewhere and revise what I told you about the dynamics. The dynamics are very important. You shouldn't use the 'ff' fortissimo if the music doesn't need it. You have to lessens the strings dynamics so that the flute can pass well there without using an agressive 'ff'. And also, you must always put a dynamic on the arrival note avec any crescendo and decrescendo. But, don't do the mistake of putting very different dynamics here, keep the whole here in the mezzo 'mp mf' it enough. The music is vivid and joyful but doesn't need to be shouted ! Also, always put the dynamic under the first note where it takes effect (ex. the first mesure of the viola).

TEMPO MARKING

GOD !... I need you to learn how to create tempo marking that really affect the tempo of the score :

1. Select the mass mover tool (the dotted line square).

2. With that tool select one voice of the first mesure so that it becomes selected.

3. Go into the plugs-in (the plug sign), go into 'expression' and select 'Create tempo marking' and follow the steps there.

You have to put the marking only at the top instrument in the score but at all the instruments in the parts... search a bit and you'll find where to do it. You still can consult the documentation at 'Create tempo marking'.

TIES

Are you completly sure that you want these type of ties for the mesures 5-6-7 at the flute part ? Now that you've learn to tie... you must now learn to untie ! When you get a 'solo' note as those you find on the 2nd and 4th beats, it's sometimes better to leave them 'd

unfortunately notepad wont let me put tempo changes that, nor will it let me hear the dynamic changes i am putting in, hence the reason the dynamics do not always sound right, i can't actually hear them!

Tempo markings

A tempo marking in NotePad is purely graphic.

To place a tempo marking in the score

most recent version

Mark

No, I'm sorry I don't have much time to write my own music. I got an orchestra piece to finish, a piece for 7 instrumentist that has only 2 minutes written and a solo violin piece... and my opera !

As you can see, I got a pretty lot of work still.

If you were living nearby I would sell you my other registration of my Finale 2007 for around 150$ canadian dollars... but since you live a bit far, I fear you'll have to find another solution. Maybe for now you'll have to rely on our opinion's alone. But that's really much better than when I was your age and that I just had nothing to rely to ! What I can try to do is to send you the tempo changes and dynamics in midi file (so that you can at least hear)... that would take me only few minutes. I understand that the playback is really important - even more when you're starting.

Here it is !... of course the final ideas are not necessarily good, but it gives you ideas of the tempo down of 1/3rd from 96 to 64.

have fun, I must go to work.

Take care.

Orchestrating practice.pdf

Orchestrating practice.mid

thanks, that was helpful, made me realise how bad an idea that tempo change was! I must try and get hold of a full version of finale. might check ebay for some older versions.

I glad it does sounds helpful. The idea isn't bad in itself, but it must have a purpose and must be brought for (and by) something. Which isn't the case here.

The theme is very light and beautiful... you might have saw that I made a miror image of your first theme in the last mesures... this means that I simply reversed the intervals. A few basic ideas to work out a theme's potential is to see what the miror and retrograde (reversing the theme... starting it from the end to the beginning) and then the miror of the retrograde sounds. This is a few stuff you can try to make links between notes or harmonies - like taking a part of the theme to create a link.

Easy stuff that you could work with is doubling or halfing the values of the rythm of a theme (or parts of it) and changing the steps of intervals can be possible too : instead of having a major second and a third for example you remove one step to each to have a minor second and a major second.

That's lots of basic 'tricks' to compose than can help you entertain us longer !

***

For finale it's a good idea. I don't see any wrong in having illegal copies at your age... there is older people like I to pay for the programmers anyway... it's of course illegal, but you're at a good age to do illegal stuff ! ehehe (:P maybe I shouldn't encourage you too though...)

Ah talking about compressions of motives... you should listen to my orchestra piece (the link is in the orchestra pieces links in this forum). All the solo of the saxophones is a 17 notes motive compressed in 1/8th tones steps. So you can hear what we can do with compressions... but trying it in a tonal way can be hazardous... but who doesn't try, doesn't known I would say... even though that doesn't apply to rape, murder and other such crimes I guess. (and hope)

I just used octaves because i was trying to keep the alberti bass a promient feature, it never occurred to me to just do what i call 'rock harmonising'. I suppose i was under the misguided impression that everything had to be contrapuntal. I must agree what i have now (although just parallel 6ths) sounds a lot better.

Understand - but this is where you may have to change things to preserve the spirit if that makes sense!

Think of the alberti bass - it's just a way of giving rhythm to a basic triad, in this case, C-E-G, so you sound out each note of the harmony in turn:

C-G-E-G / C-G-E-G etc. It could even be C-E-G-E etc.

It's helped by the percussive sound of a piano.

When transcribing it to something like strings you could indeed allocate that original bass part straight to a cello. If you wanted a very empty texture you need only put the melody over the top. But if you want it to sound like it was written for strings and with a bit of body, you need spread the harmony a bit. Hence, keep the bass low (I suggested pizz basses to keep it light) and spread the Alberti harmony between violin 2 and viola.

Now, there was nothing wrong with your version - except the doubling in unison. I can explain this in more detail if you'd like but aside from putting undue weight in an accompaniment line, you can run into intonation problems with live strings in pairs. So, simply cut out one of the instruments. Both sound okay in that part of the range so it comes down to which tone you prefer. Leave the other line as rests until you need the instrument.

But if you want the harmony more complete, use both, in 6ths and 5ths, depending which notes of your harmony they're playing.

I am planning on continuing to write for flute until i can write a piece that requires no technical correction first time, this may take me some time so i decided to try and start to learn the art of orchestration. I understand this is something that takes years to master so i will keep it up alongside my studies of particular instruments/intsrument groups.

It takes time but you gain a lot by studying scores. You have to appreciate enough about each instrument (a little more than just its range) but that's what score-studying is about. You'll learn as you go. The idea of sticking to a limited ensemble at this stage is a good one, not to mention you may stand more chance getting it performed!

I believe that writing for a solo monophonic instrument is the route to writing good melody and the flute is a good start. Listen to Debussy's Syrinx.

You said in Chris' post with his symphony that this theme has a lot of scope for development, could you possibly explain in noob terms how one would go about developing a theme?

I'll try. Development is basically 'variations'.

Your theme could be varied in several ways - the minor key; and/or with the opening melody in the bass or middle. You could even partially invert it, start an inversion on the G (dominant)= GFEFGFEDC-B-G-B/A...... Change the rhythm, the harmony...

change the style of accompaniment. Iterated staccato chords? Sustained notes?

And don't forget modulation - you could do a lot with that.

Play around with it for a while - note down what you've done. Can you get hold of some music paper just for sketching on?

I had a try with a minor variation. It started modulating all over the place!

I'll post it if you like but tbh, it sounds awful in not-pad because yuck, this dynamics thing again and the flute gets drowned out. I can't even get to the midi listing to edit it. How pathetic.

:D

M

ah, i never thought about doing that, i noticed when i studied a few of bach's inventions he did a lot of inverting the melody, either melodically or contrapuntally and augmenting and diminishing the various themes and stuff.

I'm not sure if thee's any way i can obtain an illegal copy of finale, i don't think you can crack a demo because there's no place to enter a registration code or anything. I may be able to find a pirate copy somewhere (evilbay for example) but i'm not holding out too much hope. I may be able to find an older version (like 2005 or something) on ebay for around £50, in which case i'll probably buy it.

Thanks, Mark

Montpellier, thanks for the detailed answer. I'll have a screw around with all the stuff you mentioned (aswell as the stuff dunael mentioned, but it's mostly the same sort of stuff with different wording as far as i can tell) and see what works.

I think lesser versions of finale are available - they're quite an avaricious bunch so they don't miss a trick. I don't think GPO is available with the lesser versions tho. Might be worth visiting their site because I'm not sure how easy it is even to embed samples or rewire to something more complicated. I believe someone told me it could rewire to giga 3 but you're into big money there.

I wouldn't personally go for a pirate copy because I'd want to get on the blower if I had the trouble I get with not-pad - and what's the betting there's no telephone support in the UK?

There are alternatives to finale...

Anyway, let us know if there's anything else...I won't post that slice of development unnecessarily - you might feel like you're getting flooded. But if you want me to have a look at something I'm usually around. Sometimes on the continent for a couple of days in a week.

:D

Well... if you're to spend that much money on an old version... you should consider that offer...

I though that if you can find a copy of Finale 2007 you could use my extra-registration... if I don't have to send the DVD over the ocean, then you could send me 50 (hmm I can't find your money sign on my keyboard...)... that would make around 100$ in canadian devise. I don't really mind. If you can afford this then you would have Finale 2007 and we could work more together... with your promise that when you'll be a great orchestrator you'll orchestrate the pieces I don't have time to orchestrate ! ahaha (since I'm played by professional orchestra... that shouldn't seems a too bad slavery deal to make ! ahaha

Seriously... if you find the DVDs, you tell me and I'll check that. I guess 50 (pounds?) isn't too expensive to have a true copy of Finale... but you don't have access to unexpensive ungrades after though (I do... eheh since I paid the big price for it !).

But you TRULY must be serious about this for I guess there would be a bunch of composer here that would appreciate that offer... so you better work REALLY hard. Okay ?... and invite me in Scotland in few years when you get an appartment near a ruined castle ! eheheh :P

If i could find the dvds anywhere i would definitely take you up on that offer, would anyone know how i might goabout obtaining the said DVDs?

Hmmm... I guess you have to make musician friends around you. Are you living in a big city ? Is there any music school with a composition department ? I might finish to just send you the DVD, but try to at least a bit to find a copy to install on your computer !!... ah!... talking about computers... make sure yours has the requierments... for Finale 2007 takes a lot of juice. You really need a recent computer to make it work. Otherwise, best to ask for a new computer for Chrismas!... I'm not rich enough to help you there though.

But meanwhile... how school works are going... you seem prettily intelligent, are you good at school ? (probably good in french classes... I hope you'll take some if you want to come study over here in Montreal in Canada !) And how's the compositions going ?!

Hmmm... I guess you have to make musician friends around you. Are you living in a big city ? Is there any music school with a composition department ? I might finish to just send you the DVD' date=' but try to at least a bit to find a copy to install on your computer !!... ah!... talking about computers... make sure yours has the requierments... for Finale 2007 takes a lot of juice. You really need a recent computer to make it work. Otherwise, best to ask for a new computer for Chrismas!... I'm not rich enough to help you there though.

But meanwhile... how school works are going... you seem prettily intelligent, are you good at school ? (probably good in french classes... I hope you'll take some if you want to come study over here in Montreal in Canada !) And how's the compositions going ?![/quote']

Afraid i live in a very small town and i think the nearest music school is around two or three hundred miles away. I don't have my own computer but the one i'm using is XP with 512mb of RAM, not a great deal but it'll suffice.

School is very boring, we don't do a great deal thats interesting and music is really really basic. Composition on the other hand is going rather well. I've finished something very vaugely resembling a sonata (see the solo keys forum).

I've also borrowed a grade three recorder book form my guitar teacher. After mentioning my interest he said he wanted to get me up to grade five in 8 weeks!

I do german at school as opposed to french and it bores the hell out of me. Why do they have to have three different ways of saying 'the'? Confusing people!

I shall discuss with my parents about sending the DVD, do you have a paypal account so i can give you the money?

Thanks very much, Mark

Oh! Poor you... that's funny actually because I'm interested in giving young composers a chance to learn because I wasn't given that opportunity when I was 12. I was already composing at that time (since 10-11yo) and no one was interested in what I was doing. No one though I could do music since I wasn't doing any instrument... but they 'sadly' been wrong because now I'm played by the greatest ensembles here in Montreal. University teachers sometimes consult me about microtonality or coomputer aided composition stuff. So... don't worry... you are very lucky to have a place here where you can have comments.

The furthur I'll go in my comments about the work you'll be doing the stricter I'll become... but don't loose courage for it's a long path to learn, but you may be lost sometimes in it, but don't worry I won't be lost in your process.

If I send you the whole DVD, I'll have to ask you 70 sterling pounds... is that ok for your parents. For I'll not have my DVD anymore. But I must wait a week, because since I teach a computed aided composition program to my unievrsity teacher, she'll ask to the university if I can have a computer for that since my new computer is too advanced for the program I use and it doesn't work. If I got a new computer, it's not impossible that I wish to install Finale on it...

Also, before sending me the money, you'll have to be completly sure that the program is working on your computer... also check I think there is some 'a bit less good' programs for music notation that might be less expansive (I don't know, but you surely have some informations here somewhere). So, make sure you cannot pay less somewhere else. I don't need to sell that copy but I won't let the DVD go for less than 70 pounds or the keycode for 50 pounds. And I understand it's a lot of money for you.

SO... what are you working on now !? Have you tried the technic I gave in the advices and technics topics ? You should... it always good to know tools. You don't need to use them, but when you'll need them, you'll know them... and knowing lots of tools help you to compose new tools adapted to what you wish to write - even though some are saying otherwise here... but just knowing how to write a melody isn't enough to make you a great composer.