Presto vs Allegro, what's the difference?

Now, there may be some of you that are immediately like:

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Allegro has a wider range than Presto, obviously and is typically slower

To which I would say:

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Haydn's Prestos tend to be on the slow side, even as slow as 160 BPM, what Mozart might mark as Molto Allegro or Allegro Vivace, so that range thing is debunked. And as for the typical Allegro being slower, I don't know, there are a lot of Allegros within the range of 140-200 BPM that could easily be occupied by a Presto tempo.

One thing I notice that is at least a bit truthful is a difference in the momentum, regardless of the tempo. Allegro? Eighth note momentum. Presto? Sixteenth note momentum. But even that isn't true all the time, so are there other characteristics that differ a fast Allegro from a slow Presto? You tell me, I haven't noticed anything else that is even a bit truthful of a difference between Allegro and Presto. Here are some examples of Allegros and Prestos that fit my description of having the 2 different momentum levels as well as some that break it, and they will be primarily in the range of 140-200 BPM, though especially for Presto, some may fall outside this range.

Here are some that follow the momentum difference guideline:

Super Fast Allegro, Momentum? Eighth notes, sixteenths are uncommon here

Fast Allegro, Momentum? Eighth notes

Fast Allegro, Momentum? Eighth notes, Triplets at the fastest

Slow Presto, Momentum? I'd say it is at a sixteenth note momentum for enough of the piece to say it doesn't break the momentum guideline

Presto, Momentum? I'd again say that there are enough sixteenths to say that it doesn't break the guideline

No brainer Presto, faster than or very close to 200 BPM, Definitely a sixteenth note momentum here

And here are some examples that break the guideline, both for Allegro and especially Presto:

Allegro, Momentum? Sixteenth notes, More rubato than I'd prefer in a Beethoven recording but the others I found were too slow to really illustrate that this is an Allegro with the momentum of a Presto, Chopin and Liszt level rubato shouldn't be applied to Beethoven, Beethoven should be played very strictly at tempo in my opinion, especially at fast tempos

Presto, Momentum? Eighth notes

Presto, Momentum? Eighth notes

Presto, Momentum? Eighth notes

This is by no means an exhaustive list of all Allegros and Prestos that follow and break the momentum guideline that a fast Allegro is to be at Eighth note momentum vs a slow Presto being at sixteenth note momentum, but it is a good sample I think. Now what can I gather from this? That the momentum guideline isn't enough, there is something else that differs a fast Allegro from a slow Presto. But what? Any other thing I can think of to differ the 2, like "Is the music furious sounding(Presto) or calmer for its tempo(Allegro)? Is it 180 BPM or faster?" etc. are even less true than the momentum guideline I just illustrated is as far as differing a slow Presto from a fast Allegro.

The reason I am asking this? Sometimes my Allegro becomes really fast and I become unsure of whether Allegro is really the right tempo to mark it as or whether I should remark it as Presto and less often, I end up in a similar situation with a Presto(usually when I compose Presto, I follow the momentum guideline very closely and write a lot of sixteenth notes, thus the uncertainty more often occurring with Allegro than Presto and it is most often when a piece of mine reaches a point of stormy drama that I compose at Presto)

Solution: write a BPM or range. This eliminates the wording confusion. If you want an emotion, use a different word. 

1 hour ago, Monarcheon said:

Solution: write a BPM or range. This eliminates the wording confusion. If you want an emotion, use a different word. 

 

I do write a BPM for every piece, sometimes even more than one if it has sections differing by tempo. But sometimes, especially if it is like a sonata or a suite, I want to put a word or phrase for the tempo and/or emotional quality as well. Examples of what I have done for that include:

• Molto Adagio -> Very slow
• Andante con dolore -> Moderately slow and with sorrow(when I use this emotional marking of con dolore, it's usually because I'm using what some call the "Heartbreak Tension", you know, the tension between scale degrees 6 and 5 in minor as a significant source of melodic tension)
• Andante tranquillo -> Slow and calm
• Allegro giocosso -> Fast and joyful
• Allegro con fuoco -> Fast and furious
• Adagio lamentoso -> Very slow and in deathly sorrow
• Moderato maestoso -> Moderate and majestic
• Presto -> I don't bother adding any expressive words to Presto, because Presto con fuoco or Presto giocosso or any other expression really seems redundant for Presto, like it doesn't make a difference if I mark Presto vs Presto con fuoco if there are lots of sixteenths already and it is in a minor key, so why add the con fuoco? It would make a difference for Allegro, but not Presto, at least not with the way I compose my Presto.

And I prefer the Italian words because while there may be ambiguity at the edges of ranges like there is with Fast Allegro vs Slow Presto, at least there is less ambiguity than with their English counterparts. I mean, if I wrote Fast, it could mean just about anything from Allegro Moderato to Prestissimo. Very Fast? That could be anything from Molto Allegro to Prestissimo. Moderate? That could mean Moderato, but it could also mean Andante or even the slow side of Allegro. See what I mean? English tempo markings are just too ambiguous for me to use at all. Italian markings, although they have their ambiguities, are way more useful for me.

On 5/7/2021 at 3:07 PM, caters said:

Haydn's Prestos tend to be on the slow side, even as slow as 160 BPM, what Mozart might mark as Molto Allegro or Allegro Vivace, so that range thing is debunked. And as for the typical Allegro being slower, I don't know, there are a lot of Allegros within the range of 140-200 BPM that could easily be occupied by a Presto tempo.

What's the source of this quote?  Haydn and Mozart didn't write any metronomic tempo indications for their works, so assigning exact BPM values is not really possible.  Moreover, they probably didn't think in terms of precisely measured tempi - they rely on the performer's sense of musicality to select a tempo based on the indication given and the character of the piece.  I think that if you asked Mozart for precise, scientific, definitions of what "allegro" or "molto allegro" or "presto" indicate, he'd have told you that no precise answer is possible (and probably would've accused you of being a mere automaton without any musical feeling, as he did Clementi).

9 hours ago, Aiwendil said:

What's the source of this quote?  Haydn and Mozart didn't write any metronomic tempo indications for their works, so assigning exact BPM values is not really possible.  Moreover, they probably didn't think in terms of precisely measured tempi - they rely on the performer's sense of musicality to select a tempo based on the indication given and the character of the piece.  I think that if you asked Mozart for precise, scientific, definitions of what "allegro" or "molto allegro" or "presto" indicate, he'd have told you that no precise answer is possible (and probably would've accused you of being a mere automaton without any musical feeling, as he did Clementi).

The source of that quote is my own experience from listening to many Prestos and Allegros and many recordings of said Prestos and Allegros and I can say with confidence that Haydn's Prestos do tend to be slower than those of Mozart, and that I have heard Prestos played as slow as 160 BPM, mostly those by Haydn, which is what I was trying to get across with that quote along with the fact that Allegro typically being slower isn't necessarily true either. And that's why I made the case that momentum is the most true difference between Allegro and Presto, that Allegros tend towards slower notes more often than Prestos do, but also that the momentum guideline has so many exceptions that it's like "What's the difference between Allegro and Presto if even the most true thing to differ them isn't true more than 70-80% of the time? Especially since it is usually Presto that makes the exception and not Allegro(though Rondo a Cappriccio is clear evidence that it happens with Allegros too, just less often).".

4 hours ago, caters said:

The source of that quote is my own experience from listening to many Prestos and Allegros and many recordings of said Prestos and Allegros...

Yeah, uh, that's not an actual source. It's just, like, your opinion man.

13 hours ago, Aiwendil said:

Haydn and Mozart didn't write any metronomic tempo indications for their works, so assigning exact BPM values is not really possible.

Indeed. How people choose to interpret them in recordings is irrelevant since the original intention of the tempo died with the composers.

4 hours ago, SSC said:

Yeah, uh, that's not an actual source. It's just, like, your opinion man.

Yeah, I was wondering "who on earth would write something like this quote in a published book"?