Is this a good structure for my dance suite?

So I decided to take the Baroque Dance Suite idea of multiple dances of contrasting characteristics all tied together by a key and apply it to dances common in the Romantic Era. The dances in my Romantic Dance Suite are as follows:

• Polonaise
• Mazurka
• Waltz
• Scherzo
• Polka
• Possibly an extra dance, maybe a Double of one of the previous(so like Waltz I and Waltz II or Mazurka I and Mazurka II maybe)?

And my proposed structure for them is this:

The one dance out of these 5 I don't know much about other than tempo and accent pattern is the Mazurka. It's hard for me to find information on like the typical rhythm of a Mazurka or other typical characteristics of a Mazurka(hopping or flowing, form, presence or absence of hemiola etc.) Even after listening to every Chopin Mazurka today, I still don't get it. I mean, even within a single opus, from one Mazurka to the next, Chopin does it so differently that I can't find the similarities that make them all Mazurkas on first listen. The others I know a lot more about thanks to:

• Higher amounts of exposure(Waltz and Scherzo)
• Easier to see the similarities in emotionally different pieces, even those of Chopin(Waltz and Polonaise)
• Musica Universalis' Understanding Form series(Polonaise and Polka)

Now, I only noticed this after the fact, but the structure of my Romantic Dance Suite looks very similar in characteristics to that of the Baroque Dance Suite. Each Romantic Dance can be paired with a Baroque Dance of similar character. That doesn't really help much with my Mazurka problem, as knowing about the character of the Baroque Courante doesn't mean that all or even most of the Mazurka's characteristics are similar to the Courante, but it is something that I noticed.

Quote

Polonaise and Allemande both share rhythmic complexity, a more dignified and majestic feel, and an abundance of sixteenth notes

Mazurka and Courante both share a fast tempo, triple meter, and being relatively short compared to the other dances

Waltz and Sarabande both share being the slowest dances of the bunch, although unlike the Sarabande, the Waltz isn't always slow and is sometimes quite fast

Scherzo and Minuet/Gavotte practically evolved from each other, it's the strongest tie you can get between the Romantic and the Baroque as far as common dances are concerned, although the Scherzo does tend to be faster, more complex in terms of form(Ternary form on both the large scale of the piece and the small scale of individual sections, giving rise to an ABA, CDC, ABA, Coda structure) and development(closer to Sonata Form than the simpler sequences and creschendo diminuendo intensity of the Minuet B section), and more centered around the parallel major/minor relationship than its Minuet brethren which in turn shares a lot of characteristics other than the upbeat and meter with the Gavotte(so much so that I often think of the Gavotte as a "Minuet in 4")

Polka and Gigue both share being in duple meter, although it is usually 2/4 for the Polka and 6/8 for the Gigue. They also share a fast tempo and an abundance of dotted rhythms, possibly stronger than the duple meter

So, does my Romantic Dance Suite structure look good? Any other dances I should consider adding besides the possibility of a Double? Like I said in the image, I don't know much about Romantic Era dances aside from these 5. And what are the characteristics I should look out for besides accent pattern emphasizing beat 2, fast tempo, and triple meter for the Mazurka? Like, is there a typical rhythm or melodic character to it(melodic character is what I meant by hopping or flowing above)? Is there a presence of Hemiola? Is there a typical form?

Hi @caters

I think it's a nice idea to write a suite of dances not in the baroque style. Often, the dances are collected by genre or form etc. so it's fun to have variety. Looking forward to the finished product!

About the Mazurka - I think that it will be enough, for a stylised suite (like I assume you're doing) to have the accented 2nd best and triple meter. Even within Chopin, to take one example, the tempi range so much that it's not necessarily easy to define. A lot of Chopin's are fairly chromatic, but I don't know if this is a feature of the Mazurka as a whole or just a Chopin quirk. Listening to lots of Polish folk music could help you stylistically - if you can find some examples of folk mazurkas (with videos of dancers is great!) then that will really help.

Good luck with this venture!

aMC

Hi Caters,

Sorry for the late comment.

First, about the structure of the Romantic Dance Suite: the Scherzo isn't a type of dance but rather a movement in a symphony or a sonata. I don't see the problem of adding a Scherzo in your suite, though. Also, I want to add the fact that the Scherzo may be a fast movement; however, the trio (or the "B" section in the ternary form, A-B-A) is usually slower and more emotional than the "A" section. This fact applies to particularly Scherzos that were written in the Romantic Period. One good example is Chopin's Scherzo No. 1 in B minor. Next, you may consider adding the galop, a French country dance of the nineteenth century, written in 2/4 time. I think the galop suits the last movement very well, as it usually has a rapid tempo, and it is written in the rondo form (A-B-A-C-A-B-A).

Other than accents in weak beats and triple-meter, a characteristic of the Mazurka, it does have a distinctive rhythmic pattern, as shown in the picture below. A typical feature of the Mazurka is dotted rhythms, which are primarily heard in the first beat of the measure. Besides listening to Chopin's Mazurkas, I suggest you listen to Mazurkas by other composers, such as Tchaikovsky's Mazurka, Op. 39, No. 11. This Mazurka uses dotted rhythms throughout the piece, and it may give you a rough idea of how a Mazurka should sound. The Mazurka can take any form and does not necessarily have to be written in the ternary or rondo forms.

Carl Koh Wei Hao

9 hours ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

Hi Caters,

Sorry for the late comment.

No problem, you gave a good response to my post, and quality takes time.

9 hours ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

First, about the structure of the Romantic Dance Suite: the Scherzo isn't a type of dance but rather a movement in a symphony or a sonata. I don't see the problem of adding a Scherzo in your suite, though. Also, I want to add the fact that the Scherzo may be a fast movement; however, the trio (or the "B" section in the ternary form, A-B-A) is usually slower and more emotional than the "A" section. This fact applies to particularly Scherzos that were written in the Romantic Period. One good example is Chopin's Scherzo No. 1 in B minor.

Yeah, I know that it isn't a dance technically speaking, but it does tend to have some dance like characteristics and it evolved from a dance that is in a lot of ways similar and in a lot of ways very different, the Minuet. The large scale Ternary Form, the key contrast, use of counterpoint, the development of motives, in those ways, the 2 are very similar. But the way that each one of those similarities is done, that's where a lot of the differences between the Scherzo and the Minuet lie. Plus it just fits with the Romantic Era to have a Scherzo in the suite.

9 hours ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

Next, you may consider adding the galop, a French country dance of the nineteenth century, written in 2/4 time. I think the galop suits the last movement very well, as it usually has a rapid tempo, and it is written in the rondo form (A-B-A-C-A-B-A).

I've never even heard of that dance before, I'll have to do some research on it before I know whether I will add it to the suite or not. Ending in Rondo Form though sounds like a good way of rounding things out. I was thinking of having my Polonaise be in a rondo, I'm not certain I will have the Polonaise in Rondo, but it's definitely a consideration, especially given how uncommon it is to have a Polonaise be in Rondo Form.

10 hours ago, Carl Koh Wei Hao said:

Other than accents in weak beats and triple-meter, a characteristic of the Mazurka, it does have a distinctive rhythmic pattern, as shown in the picture below. A typical feature of the Mazurka is dotted rhythms, which are primarily heard in the first beat of the measure. Besides listening to Chopin's Mazurkas, I suggest you listen to Mazurkas by other composers, such as Tchaikovsky's Mazurka, Op. 39, No. 11. This Mazurka uses dotted rhythms throughout the piece, and it may give you a rough idea of how a Mazurka should sound. The Mazurka can take any form and does not necessarily have to be written in the ternary or rondo forms.

I did notice a lot of dotted rhythms on my second listen through Chopin's Mazurkas, including in his most well known Mazurka, Op. 7 no. 1. Another common rhythm I noticed on beat 1 was triplets, such as this:

Although that might just be because Chopin used triplets a lot in his works, both implicit to the time signature and explicitly written out as triplets. I don't know how common it is in Mazurkas outside those of Chopin to have triplets on beat 1.

And yeah, I noticed a variety of forms in the Mazurka as well on my second listen. There are those in rondo like the very well known Bb major Mazurka:

And a lot of the Mazurkas I've listened to are in Rondo Form. But some are in Ternary Form of some sort such as this C major Mazurka in a complex Ternary Form more akin to that often found in the Polonaise or Scherzo:

And others still are in Binary Form like this Mazurka of the same opus as the well known Bb major Mazurka that just goes from a tonic A section to a dominant B section:

And I didn't know other composers wrote Mazurkas too, I've only heard Chopin's Mazurkas. I think I will listen to that Tchaikovsky Mazurka you mentioned in the post right now to help get a better idea of what the Mazurka should sound like.