Toccata and fugue in c minor

Toccata and fugue in c minor for organ manualiter. Written in the north german style. The fugue has been postet on this forum before.

Plase tell me what you think.

I love this toccata!  Judging by the score it seems like all it really is is just a bunch of arpeggios and scales but that is most decidedly an understatement!  Your transitions are superb and you explore some exciting harmonic avenues all in the context of a challenging keyboard toccata that's very pleasing to hear!

Now to the fugue.  Like you said, you've already posted this one on here before and I remember reviewing it.  Fugue writing is tough and despite all this piece has going for it - an interesting subject, exciting countersubject/free counterpoint and ample exploration of closely related keys in the episodes - I still feel like there are many places that are concatenated when they should really be allowed to blossom (and the ending seems like it's too early).  Still - an enjoyable piece, but I think the toccata is better!  Thanks for sharing.

Incredibly beautiful piece, really loved to listen to. On the other hand, I don't know if it's because I listen way too much Bach, but doesn't seem that original to me, in fact most of it, it's like I've already heard it before, more than once. I know when you want to keep on the style and when there's someone as Bach that just composed so much music, is almost impossible to leave that area covered to try and include or create more "original" music, but still I feel (being honest, not trying to be rude, as I love this music), that I'm not hearing Simen-N, but Bach. You can take that as a compliment, specially if that was your objetive, but It really feels like i'm just hearing something that's been written before already. Just so you know, i'm talking specially about the toccata, but this also includes that together with the fugue.

Again, I apologize if I offend you in anyway, because it's not my intention (and I don't think I will, but just in case), but your incredibly beautiful piece comes with lack of originality or innovation, in anyway, and is not about you sticking to a certain style without breaking it, but rather, you just writting something that's been already written, almost as if you just cut a few paintings like Guernica and the Woman that cries (here Picasso would be Bach) and then glue them together so that you make a coherent in form and artistically piece, but after all it's no something that really comes from oneself.

And again, this is my feel towards this. I really enjoyed the piece, I, in fact loved it and could relisten, but I wanted to be the most honest possible with you. I really hope my mind is betraying me, but as far as I can conceive, i'm just listening a "remix" of stuff that I've already heard before. On the other hand, since we all tend to copy and inevitably do what others did before, don't take this very seriously, because that would be to harsh. Nonetheless, keep composing like that if it is what makes you feel the best and you think is the best.

The toccata is kind of really cheap sounding next to the fugue which is pretty nice. I mean, you did lift that entire motive in measure 98-99 (and onwards) from Bach's 552 Eflat major fugue, but whatever it's not criminal to quote other composers (maybe it was unintentional? but I really really doubt it! I mean sometimes it feels like a double fugue due to this, but then again not quite.)

I also think it's pretty ballsy to actually have such a long subject as well, specially since it lends itself to get lost in the counterpoint and blur the lines between episode and exposition. In fact, it kind of puts a lot of pressure on developing good countersubjects since that's often the only thing that is actually audible in the counterpoint during the subject's mandatory sequencing. It happens here too, as it did with Bach (543 A minor fugue for example.) I specially like the false exposition in 112 that leads into a rather more modern segment with the tremolo octaves, something very very rare in organ literature in this style.

In fact, it's pretty cool is the way you cut the subject tail short to break a little from expectation as well as alter the subject head (like in measure 118). It's too bad that the ending has just a reprise of the measure 112 bit and then a rather uneventful cadence. I think for something like this you need to go all out and tap into the more "fantasia" side, like Bach's already mentioned 543 fugue which has a pretty wild ending. It would work on a lot of levels, specially since you could tie it to the prelude thematically somehow and it'd be pretty nice if a little more dramatic too.

I think that the fugue is a really nice homage to late Bach counterpoint, but it's got its own little thing going too, which is nice. It's cleverly written and it deals with the "long subject with sequences" issue really well, very cool stuff.

All this being said, the toccata is really really lacking. It's laughably dull compared to the fugue. I don't know what was happening here but it felt like you just wanted to tack something before the fugue and did exactly that. For one the sequences are too long but are not interesting enough or go anywhere special for them to justify the length. Maybe it's an issue of it being so continuous. A toccata is meant to be something striking to hear technically, faster and wilder in general than just a regular prelude. Think BWV 564's toccata, with the pedal solo and all the monodies that twist and turn on themselves when you play them just fast enough. It has to have a certain sense of showmanship, which here is totally absent.

If on the other hand you want to argue this is more of a BWV 540 "Toccata" kind of thing, then I would say it still has its elements that draw your attention immediately despite how the pedal and the constant canon make it seem at the start, like the pedal solos (again.) It also goes into some pretty harsh harmonic directions in the later half when the cadences start one after the other. Again, showmanship! Drama! Specially when it calms down and returns to the canon it feels really different. Great stuff.

Still man, good work even if I'm a little too critical. 🙂

2 hours ago, SSC said:

The toccata is kind of really cheap sounding next to the fugue which is pretty nice. I mean, you did lift that entire motive in measure 98-99 (and onwards) from Bach's 552 Eflat major fugue, but whatever it's not criminal to quote other composers (maybe it was unintentional? but I really really doubt it! I mean sometimes it feels like a double fugue due to this, but then again not quite.)

 

I also think it's pretty ballsy to actually have such a long subject as well, specially since it lends itself to get lost in the counterpoint and blur the lines between episode and exposition. In fact, it kind of puts a lot of pressure on developing good countersubjects since that's often the only thing that is actually audible in the counterpoint during the subject's mandatory sequencing. It happens here too, as it did with Bach (543 A minor fugue for example.) I specially like the false exposition in 112 that leads into a rather more modern segment with the tremolo octaves, something very very rare in organ literature in this style.

 

In fact, it's pretty cool is the way you cut the subject tail short to break a little from expectation as well as alter the subject head (like in measure 118). It's too bad that the ending has just a reprise of the measure 112 bit and then a rather uneventful cadence. I think for something like this you need to go all out and tap into the more "fantasia" side, like Bach's already mentioned 543 fugue which has a pretty wild ending. It would work on a lot of levels, specially since you could tie it to the prelude thematically somehow and it'd be pretty nice if a little more dramatic too.

 

I think that the fugue is a really nice homage to late Bach counterpoint, but it's got its own little thing going too, which is nice. It's cleverly written and it deals with the "long subject with sequences" issue really well, very cool stuff.

 

All this being said, the toccata is really really lacking. It's laughably dull compared to the fugue. I don't know what was happening here but it felt like you just wanted to tack something before the fugue and did exactly that. For one the sequences are too long but are not interesting enough or go anywhere special for them to justify the length. Maybe it's an issue of it being so continuous. A toccata is meant to be something striking to hear technically, faster and wilder in general than just a regular prelude. Think BWV 564's toccata, with the pedal solo and all the monodies that twist and turn on themselves when you play them just fast enough. It has to have a certain sense of showmanship, which here is totally absent.

 

If on the other hand you want to argue this is more of a BWV 540 "Toccata" kind of thing, then I would say it still has its elements that draw your attention immediately despite how the pedal and the constant canon make it seem at the start, like the pedal solos (again.) It also goes into some pretty harsh harmonic directions in the later half when the cadences start one after the other. Again, showmanship! Drama! Specially when it calms down and returns to the canon it feels really different. Great stuff.

 

Still man, good work even if I'm a little too critical. 🙂

 

Thank you very much SSC for taking the time to listening in and giving a detailed review.

About the 552 fugue i cant not really agree with you. My style is a mix of mid italian and north german style (man influence is buxtehude and Corelli). The 552 fuge is actually one of the most common ways to threat a subject in the mid and early baroque (take a listen to buxtehudes fugue in buxwv 141, its the same subject as bach uses). So if my piece is a quote to a composer, its not bach! 🙂 

From 112 you clearly see my late italian writing form the violin concertos, its true that this is not very common for organ literature, but i try to do something different here and there 🙂 

Again i disagree with you, this music is not written in bach mannor. Far too few 16 notes that goes all the time. Its more italian in style then north german. For me the toccata is very stylus fantasticus (witch is also very late italian, could be a violin concerto). One problem i have in my keyboard music is that im too used to writing concertos for strings, but that is what i love, so i guess with me in all music i write 🙂

Thank you again! 

3 hours ago, Simen-N said:

One problem i have in my keyboard music is that im too used to writing concertos for strings, but that is what i love, so i guess with me in all music i write

I don't think it's a problem. In fact, I wish I could see more of that influence in the music. Still, it's impossible to step out of the shadow of bach when it comes to fugues, but I do see what you mean with your influences.

3 hours ago, Simen-N said:

So if my piece is a quote to a composer, its not bach!

That's not what I meant, I meant that there's a motive (no the subject, it's part of the countersubject) that's very similar to that one in that Bach Eb fugue. Nothing else. If you didn't know, then it was probably accidental then.

3 hours ago, Simen-N said:

From 112 you clearly see my late italian writing form the violin concertos, its true that this is not very common for organ literature, but i try to do something different here and there

I think you could've used more of that on the toccata honestly, still, I thought it was cool.