Violin concerto

Hello all, new here so if you have three quarters of an hour to spare then I hope you'll enjoy my newest piece (also my largest scale).  Synthetic recording created with Sibelius 7 notation software and Noteperformer sound library by Wallander instruments.  Info on piece available in video description... looking forward to any comments and/or questions!

Instrumentation - violin solo with symphony orchestra;

2 flutes, 2 oboes, cor anglais, 2 clarinets in Bb, 2 bassoons, contrabassoon;  4 horns in F, 3 trumpets in Bb, 2 tenor and 1 bass trombones, tuba;  timpani;  harp (3rd movement only), strings.

Sorry I have included the score as PDFs, seperate for each movement (as I was writing each movement as a separate Sibelius file)

uhhhh yeah youre dope.

15 minutes ago, Left Unexplained said:

uhhhh yeah youre dope.

I concur. 😄

10 hours ago, Left Unexplained said:

uhhhh yeah youre dope.

 

Why thank you, very kind!  I know it's quite the inflated work, so I'd be very grateful if you'd take some time to mull it over - would love some more detailed opinions, and perhaps dare I say - something critical? 😛

it reminds me of Jacob collier's harmony at the beginning of the section you started at (not saying you stole it, but I sure do). You take your time to develop themes, Im often too scared to bore the listener, but this is evidence that that isn't what happens. This sounds very intentional. I love the staccato lines. God man, your first triumphant climax section is on the level of Wagner. The bar has been raised quite a bit on here. So cohesive, expressive, I can only imagine how you were feeling when you made this.. although I often feel very bad and make a work of quality, so u never know. Get this performed!!

Not afraid to use diatonicism. Although I guess my criticism would be it could be a bit more jarring just at some points harmonically, but I love it and I wouldn't change it. Idk haha. It's just your style I think, and you aren't me.

The buildups are incredible. So fluid.. So raw. You know how to flesh out the true emotion but my guess is you are very technically proficient. 

Not trying to ∂ickride u, sorry, it just really is amazing and I can't help but say it. 

Is that Frank Symphony I hear?

8 hours ago, Brinsonian said:

Is that Frank Symphony I hear?

 

yknow whats really funny is I had never heard that until after I composed this, when someone pointed it out.... was quite enraged really!  But I figured its not enough to be plagiarism... only a small motif / harmony... it came to me as the natural progression of the pastoral theme, which just so happened to be the same harmonic progression and similar motif as in the Franck!  If I'm really splitting hairs, the motif in the Franck goes up a semitone then between the third and the tonic; in my piece it only alternates between the third and the tonic, and is an extension of the pastoral theme which is different (A, D F# F# A--F#D).

Anyway what I'm getting at, is it is such an integral theme in my concerto, I thought it wouldn't be worth changing/removing it and then consequently having to rework the whole thing - too much effort, and it would no longer be the organic product of the original!   Anyway, do you think it is too much of a similarity to render this work plagiaristic and invalid?

Many thanks for your feedback,

Zeb.

13 hours ago, Left Unexplained said:

it reminds me of Jacob collier's harmony at the beginning of the section you started at (not saying you stole it, but I sure do). You take your time to develop themes, Im often too scared to bore the listener, but this is evidence that that isn't what happens. This sounds very intentional. I love the staccato lines. God man, your first triumphant climax section is on the level of Wagner. The bar has been raised quite a bit on here. So cohesive, expressive, I can only imagine how you were feeling when you made this.. although I often feel very bad and make a work of quality, so u never know. Get this performed!!

Not afraid to use diatonicism. Although I guess my criticism would be it could be a bit more jarring just at some points harmonically, but I love it and I wouldn't change it. Idk haha. It's just your style I think, and you aren't me.

The buildups are incredible. So fluid.. So raw. You know how to flesh out the true emotion but my guess is you are very technically proficient. 

Not trying to ∂ickride u, sorry, it just really is amazing and I can't help but say it. 

 

Thank you for your very kind feedback!  With the more jarring bits (I assume you mean the quintal harmony section in the finale?), it is a deliberate contrast between the familiar and the unfamiliar... it is meant to be jarring!  For me it is the music of anxiety... In terms of how I was feeling, well the vast majority of the music I wrote only when I was inspired.. that is, I found the idea highly potent and emotionally appealing.  There are great joys, also sorrows, depressions and anxiety, and love (or rather a longing for which) all put into this.  Personally one of my favourite bits is the chorale-like string section in Db major in the 2nd movement... of course music is subjective, but for me it is definitely a longing for someone wonderful... apologies for the romantic cliché, and moaning about my love life!

Sorry, re. Jacob Collier... which section did you mean?

I suppose my view on composing is similar to Gustav Holst, who said “Never compose anything unless the not composing of it becomes a positive nuisance to you.”  For me, that means I only write something when I am compelled to, because the idea is so enjoyable - which for me, means it is thematically strong, emotionally potent... in some ways being a composer feels like being a sorcerer, conjuring up different emotions and experiences!  Of course the enjoyment of music is something subjective - everyone has a different taste and looks for different things in their musical enjoyment (indeed, different things appeal to one at different times, when one is in a different state!)  But essentially, I have succeeded when I have created an enjoyable and potent experience, all the more so when other people enjoy it too.

P.S. Lol 'd***ride', never heard that term before, made me laugh! (are you American by the way?  Google said it's of American origin... I'm over the sea in old England!)

Thanks,

Zeb.

6 hours ago, ZJStrudwick said:

Sorry, re. Jacob Collier... which section did you mean?

30:01 polychords 

6 hours ago, ZJStrudwick said:

P.S. Lol 'd***ride', never heard that term before, made me laugh! (are you American by the way?  Google said it's of American origin... I'm over the sea in old England!)

haha yeah I am

Oh wow, this is super rad. You put a ton of work into this and it shows, extremely well done. The beginning I think is flawless

This is a very skilled presentation.  I seldom listen to a presenter's work - preferring to listen to sections here and there; however, I sat through the entire work.

The first movement is pretty straight forward ... and carries you along nicely.  The second movement -  has it's moments and there is where I have some comments: the various motifs are quite lovely, yet they move about to different musical moments - some  "jazzy" and some more pastoral and others yet different in feel.  Also for some reason lots of the material sound somewhat familiar to my ear?  The third movement similar to the first is straight forward and full of energy with a Russian tinge at moments and at other times Sibelius in the brass - the mood is flexible; however, once again I hear a bit of this and that - which also sounds familiar to my ear.  It seems you are pulling ideas from many sources.  I also heard a bit of a classical feel in the first movement - again fluid ideas.

I especially enjoyed reviewing your orchestration.

Bravo on a very good and substantial journey!

Mark

On 11/30/2021 at 7:40 PM, dbzfreak2 said:

Oh wow, this is super rad. You put a ton of work into this and it shows, extremely well done. The beginning I think is flawless

 

Thank you I'm so glad you enjoyed it!  Yes I'm rather proud of the opening.. not to flatter myself but I'm certainly pleased with the fluidity of voice leading, and the enigmatic quality of the opening theme! 

On 11/30/2021 at 10:01 PM, MJFOBOE said:

This is a very skilled presentation.  I seldom listen to a presenter's work - preferring to listen to sections here and there; however, I sat through the entire work.

The first movement is pretty straight forward ... and carries you along nicely.  The second movement -  has it's moments and there is where I have some comments: the various motifs are quite lovely, yet they move about to different musical moments - some  "jazzy" and some more pastoral and others yet different in feel.  Also for some reason lots of the material sound somewhat familiar to my ear?  The third movement similar to the first is straight forward and full of energy with a Russian tinge at moments and at other times Sibelius in the brass - the mood is flexible; however, once again I hear a bit of this and that - which also sounds familiar to my ear.  It seems you are pulling ideas from many sources.  I also heard a bit of a classical feel in the first movement - again fluid ideas.

I especially enjoyed reviewing your orchestration.

Bravo on a very good and substantial journey!

Mark

 

Thank you very much for your feedback!  I'm really glad to hear you enjoyed it... I personally believe there is no such thing as music that is 100% original and very often I will be hugely inspired by a thematic idea from another composer where I am dissatisfied and want to make something much more out of it!  I am often inspired by the various pieces I play in ensembles and there is definitely a sort of sponging of inspiration from different places... but really I think that's how pretty much all composers get their inspiration (or at least the vast majority).  I suppose really what makes a composer original is how they put these inspirations together, and in this case I am very glad you enjoyed the journey of this piece, which is what symphonies and concertos are all about!

I started taking notes as I was listening but stopped midway through because the musical references were starting to bother me and I couldn't go on. Here are my original (rough and unpolished) notes: 

First Movement

• p. 14, 6/4 should be 3/2
• p. 20, use two voices for flute and bassoon staves 
• p. ?, this is almost note-for-note one of the themes from Franck's symphony
• Throughout the movement, trombones and trumpets are a little heavy - consider marking them down in dynamics (poco forte, for example, in a forte section, or just mezzoforte) 
• pp. 23-24, the double stops are excessively difficult
• "arco" and "pizz." usually aren't italicized (some publishers do italicize them, though)
• You use a lot of mezzopiano, which is very uncommon in the music I listen to.

Second Movement

• p. 1 - The "Affettuoso" section sounds suspiciously like the theme from Jurassic Park.
• p. 6 - This sounds like a deliberate quote from the third movement of Elgar 1.
• p. 9 - The "A dark path" section sounds like a famous pop song, but I don't know the name of it.
• p. 11 - This is literally the andante from Schubert 2.

I had to stop a couple minutes into the third movement, because the musical references just got to be too much, and it was actually starting to make me mad. It was like listening to a medley of classical hits with none of the original composers credited (there were a lot more examples than the ones I listed here). Sorry if I'm being excessively harsh, but there are really only two possible explanations for what's going on here: either you're incredibly susceptible to unconscious plagiarism or... well... do I even need to finish this sentence?

You obviously have some talent -- your sense of form, orchestration, and engraving are above-average -- but you can't get by on cribbing other people's work, whether it's conscious or not. If you want to emulate other composers, that's one thing (in fact, I encourage emulation as a valuable learning tool), but even emulation requires some degree of originality. Again, I don't mean to be harsh, but I think you can do better.

On 1/8/2022 at 9:57 PM, Vogel said:

I started taking notes as I was listening but stopped midway through because the musical references were starting to bother me and I couldn't go on. Here are my original (rough and unpolished) notes: 

First Movement

• p. 14, 6/4 should be 3/2
• p. 20, use two voices for flute and bassoon staves 
• p. ?, this is almost note-for-note one of the themes from Franck's symphony
• Throughout the movement, trombones and trumpets are a little heavy - consider marking them down in dynamics (poco forte, for example, in a forte section, or just mezzoforte) 
• pp. 23-24, the double stops are excessively difficult
• "arco" and "pizz." usually aren't italicized (some publishers do italicize them, though)
• You use a lot of mezzopiano, which is very uncommon in the music I listen to.

Second Movement

• p. 1 - The "Affettuoso" section sounds suspiciously like the theme from Jurassic Park.
• p. 6 - This sounds like a deliberate quote from the third movement of Elgar 1.
• p. 9 - The "A dark path" section sounds like a famous pop song, but I don't know the name of it.
• p. 11 - This is literally the andante from Schubert 2.

I had to stop a couple minutes into the third movement, because the musical references just got to be too much, and it was actually starting to make me mad. It was like listening to a medley of classical hits with none of the original composers credited (there were a lot more examples than the ones I listed here). Sorry if I'm being excessively harsh, but there are really only two possible explanations for what's going on here: either you're incredibly susceptible to unconscious plagiarism or... well... do I even need to finish this sentence?

You obviously have some talent -- your sense of form, orchestration, and engraving are above-average -- but you can't get by on cribbing other people's work, whether it's conscious or not. If you want to emulate other composers, that's one thing (in fact, I encourage emulation as a valuable learning tool), but even emulation requires some degree of originality. Again, I don't mean to be harsh, but I think you can do better.

 

I think you're exaggerating the strength of some of the references. I heard this concerto prior to the Franck symphony, and indeed when I was listening to Franck I suddenly realized I thought I recognized a theme from somewhere, and I traced it back to this concerto. But the resemblance is superficial at best. A few shared notes at the beginning, but the themes go off in pretty different directions beyond that point.

I went back and checked Elgar 1's third movement, and I'm a bit confused about what you think he quoted.

The Schubert 2 reference is definitely a lot stronger, to the point of being uncanny if it indeed occurred by accident. But it's treated somewhat differently, so I'd still buy that he came up with it on his own.

I once composed a fugue that accidentally plagiarized the subject from Bach's BWV 1003 fugue, almost note-for-note. I had no idea it had transpired that way until someone commented, "wait, that sounds like BWV 1003"...

Everyone can be susceptible to unconscious plagiarism. It's perhaps indicative of a lack of breadth in one's listening repertoire, but there's not exactly an easy way to check yourself for it.

It's clear it took a lot of effort and thought to write this work, so kudos! The orchestration, attention to melody, and engraving are the highlights for me (my score engraving is quite horrendous, so this is quite impressive!). Your solo violin writing isn't that bad...there are a few technical difficult spots here and there. My biggest concern is that the solo violin plays continuously, and since it's a REALLY long piece, the soloist is probably going to lose steam halfway through the 2nd movement. To me, this is less "Violin Concerto", and more a Symphony with Violin Obligato. 

Each movement does seem to have a structure/roadmap, but sometimes, some sections are unnecessarily prolonged, or they seem really random...Here are my thoughts for each movement:

First movement: Probably my favorite of the three, and the most cohesive in structure. I hear a little bit of Dvorak's influence in there. Everything seems good until, measure 155. 155 to about 195 seems like I've entered a different movement, and it's very jarring how different the tone and atmosphere is compared to the everything else. For a movement in A minor, I'm surprised you don't explore the material in A major or C major....But overall not too bad! 

Second movement: Not a big fan of this movement. There was not a cohesive structure, and I feel like you were trying to throw a LOT of stuff in here to fill out the movement, and it did not gel for me. I kinda liked the section at A, with the Gershwin-esque jazzyness....even though it didn't quite match the tone of the first movement...but I still enjoyed it! I think you can expand that section a little more. The sudden shift in measure 68 however was jarring, but weirdly that was what I was expecting the 2nd movement would sound like more, and it flows very well from the 1st movement, and the introduction of the 2nd movement. Then there is a complete tone shift at letter F...did not like it. Might've worked better if the previous section was more developed and the transition material worked, but the shift in tone did not sit well with me. The tone does shift again....at measure 110. Personally, I would omit everything F and 110, it would flow much better. I would also developed ending little more, and make it a little less thick, orchestration-wise...maybe just the violin and strings...and do an attacca into the next movement.

Third movement:  I have to be honest here...I couldn't listen to the whole movement, and had to skip around some sections. This movement is unnecessarily really long, and really taxing on the solo violinist, the orchestra, and the listener. I think you were going for a Rondo-esque form here...but some of it was really superfluous. It started off really well, with the melodic material brought back from the first movement. I really like the cadenza moment at 93, and I think that should be heavily expanded! Measure 125 (and whenever that is repeated later) should have varied orchestration...gets kinda boring with the exact same material. Plus the solo violinist does need a rest from all those ricochet arpeggios. Transition at 130 starts out great, and the material that follows is intriguing....but it feels like I've entered a whole different violin concerto at 150. It suddenly goes from a romantic sounding work to something Bartok/Madonna would've written (VEERRRRRRYYYYYY jarring). We return back to the main material at 204, but that gets interrupted by a a Beethoven-esque scherzo at 242, which still somewhat fits better. Around measure 400, I was starting to lose interest....measure 424 could use some counterpoint to keep things moving. The whole section from 445-470 is very meandering, and can probably be omitted. Same for after the cadenza at 523-533. I think you were trying to throw different things together and hoping the hodgepodge of different styles/melodies come together, but it's not working. There are barely any rests for the solo violin, and thought it's not overly technical...it is EXTREMELY long.  

You are exceptionally creative. Your music is full of beautiful sounds and entertaining ideas. Possibly you have too much creativity squeezed in. By that I mean you have lots of wonderful themes all joined together, that don't necessarily flow together in a meaningful way. It's as though you've taken all the best 100 bits of your favourite  movies and joined them together.  The result is impressive, though a little unsettling, because it lacks a logical flow to make sense of it all.  You have enough material to make 10 symphonies.  My advice would be to pick a few themes that complement each other and then practice developing them in the way that classical composers did. If you did that, your music could be truly sensational.

I have listened to lots of music and I don't think your ideas are too similar to others in a way that would get you into any serious trouble.

Well Done.

Morgan.

Seeing this come back up in discussion gave me a nudge to listen, so I did. This is a very entertaining piece. You’ve clearly got the late Romantic style nailed, and the orchestration is on point. If it were performed live, you (and the soloist) would get an ovation. It’s just what audiences would expect a violin concerto to be.

But you said you wanted critical comments, so here you go:

The piece sounds (except for a couple of spots) like it was written 110 to 140 years ago. I’m all for embracing music of prior eras, being influenced by many styles, building on what’s come before, etc.; but I have to wonder, why put all that effort into creating a full-scale major work that lives a century and a half in the past? As an artist, don’t you want to speak to your own time, and from your own life? It’s a little like if I said I was going to write stories just like Mark Twain did about life on the Mississippi in the 1800s. People would say, “Why? Twain already did that, and he was actually there.” We’ve got late-Romantic violin concertos written by people who lived in that era. What’s the value of an imitation, except as a curiosity or a commodity?

Given that you’re choosing to take a 19th century European viewpoint, using a blues-like element in the 2nd movement raises a lot of questions. At that time, the roots of blues would have been found in the U.S. among Black communities mostly in extreme poverty. Your music isn’t that, instead it’s a highly gentrified kind of blues that might have been popular among upper-crust American audiences in the 1950s, but in the 2020s is socially tone-deaf. And using it, as you do, as a diversion (“Setting off into the countryside”) that is then tossed away feels like, “Oh, it was so pleasant to visit that plantation; but of course we’re far more sophisticated than that.” It’s an antiquated attitude that’s out of place now.

The “quintic” bits in the last movement make me sad. Even though I love this kind of harmonic language, and your episodes are nice taken by themselves, they just don’t work in the context of your 19th century world. I know you commented above that you intended it to be “jarring”, but I don’t buy that. It’s like a John Constable landscape with an Andy Warhol soup can in the middle of it. The whole is less than the sum of its parts.

You’ve clearly got the skills to write music of the present — whatever you define that to be — rather than longing for “good old days” that never were. I’d really encourage you to do that.

Oh… one more thing. The title page of your score. I hope it’s intended as tongue-in-cheek because otherwise it’s really, really pretentious.

Like others, my first impression was Franck. I hear borrowings from other composers as well, possibly unintentional.

Your orchestration and violin writing show great skill.

I have no wish to pour cold water on what is obviously a major effort.

However, I was not captured by the themes. It feels like a lot of the piece is transitional rather than developmental. I'd like to hear firmer melody and recognizable permutations of it.

The orchestration is correct, but not particularly colorful. Much of it is dense and the same.

You're very talented.

Cheers,
Jer

It's pretty good, but I think there are more professional solutions than Sibelius in sound. Have you tried Kontakt libraries? I like the main motive in the beginnings, very playful and catchy, I would like to hear it with Kontakt libraries or with a real orchestra.