Piano Concerto No.2 in Bb minor

Hello all, hope you're all well. I haven't posted anything for quite some time but I kept working on my 2nd Piano Concerto and I'm happy to say that it's finally ready! It's dedicated to Ruben, the most wonderful cat who died this week from cancer but who gave us 10 great years, I love you Ruben. The Concerto is in 3 movements, I hope you'll find time to listen to them all, it's just over 21 minutes in all. I don't really like to impose my views or thoughts about I feel about it or what it might represent, I prefer to leave that up the individual but needless to say I'm very pleased with it. I hope you like it, and please feel free to leave a comment, I'd love to know what you think. The links are to my sound cloud page, hope they work ok. Love to you all Mark.

https://soundcloud.com/user-729021187/piano-concerto-no2-in-bb-minor-1st-movt?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

https://soundcloud.com/user-729021187/piano-concerto-no2-in-bb-minor-2nd-movt?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

https://soundcloud.com/user-729021187/piano-concerto-no2-in-bb-minor-3rd-movt?utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

Hello again,

Just a quick addition. I know some of you like to see the score so I have uploaded them here.

My process is quite messy, there are lots of mistakes, improperly divided notes and badly tied notes, wrongly spelled enharmonics etc., etc., plus there are various artifacts that are necessary for NotePerfomer to play it correctly. I just hope that anyone wishing to see the score can follow my intentions rather than what is sometimes actually written.

If I thought there was ever any chance that someone might actually want to perform it, then I would take the time to produce a performance score, but I hope you will forgive my not taking the time to do it right now.

Thanks again and I hope you enjoy it.

Mark

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vm7nud7lcyys8ym/Piano Concerto No.2 in Bb minor 1st Movt adjusted score. - Full Score.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/r6o298nfgb2cl3p/Piano Concerto No.2 in Bb minor 2nd Movt. adjusted score - Full Score.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahoabrlurrhlpfg/Piano Concerto No.2 in Bb minor 3rd Movt. adjusted score - Full Score.pdf?dl=0

I made a mistake when exporting the scores and they came out nearly unreadable.  I have since made much clearer copies should anyone wish to see them and the links above are now to the wholey more ledgable copies.

First, congratulations on finishing something big like this. That's not easy and I think that deserves recognition.

Second, please fix your score. I mean I know you said you don't want to bother unless someone wants to perform it, but honestly reading it was kind of hard and if you already went through the trouble of writing the whole thing, why not make it pretty to look at? Maybe you don't have time, fine, but as soon as you can you should do it.

Third, as for the piece itself. I think that on a technical level your piano writing is alright and so is the orchestration, tho I would've preferred to see more mixed groups rather than just blocks, but it's I guess in that early 19th century style. As for the actual music, I think that it's very very dense and very very busy in most instances. Like, I'd rather the piece be longer if it meant that you got some time to breathe. This is immediately apparent in the first movement where there are large stretches where piano is basically carrying the whole thing with very little interaction with the orchestra, usually in the same rhythmic patterns. Like, you do break it up here and there, but I get the feeling that it's like the pianist is just rushing to get to the end and the end of the movement just cuts off. There's very little discernible form, too, which makes it sort of hard to concentrate. You do establish a sort of-kind of theme when the piano appears, but then you have a lot of development that isn't tied to anything, and it's all very chromatic and dense.

The other movements feel very similar, too. It's hard to hear any kind of form other than the very basic introduction, and it's hard to know if the motives you keep repeating are important or not or if they're just random. I mean in the second movement you have the motives from the beginning intro that you keep repeating, but the problem is that it feels aimless without any marked point where something starts and something ends. Like, you do use full on cadences on occasion but are they something structural? I'd say sometimes, but rarely. The second movement also ends with what looks like a tiny reprise at the end, but again it feels like it suddenly cuts off. Why did the movement have to end there? Why not a minute sooner? Or a minute later? 

It's really sort of a shame because you have some really great moments and some of the textures are very nice, but that's the hard part of writing long-form, the longer you write the more the form itself takes center stage. Normally what composers did in the 19th century when it came to concertos like this is that they very much stuck to rather audible and sometimes simplified form ideas so that they could then use the orchestra more. Like, say, Brahms' first piano concerto, he full on repeats the beginning after the piano's introduction, and that's already like 4 minutes into the piece. But say you think Brahms' long-winded, how about Schumann's concerto? He establishes the theme very early and repeats it a few times for good measure, so we know what it is. And so on.

Anyway, thanks for posting!

SSC,

Thank you so much for taking the time to listen and to write your very considered analysis, I really appreciate it.

It's not an excuse, but my formal training consists of piano lessons from the age of 8 until 13.  I reached grade 3 in those times, I'm 55 now.  So much of what you suggest is probably (at the moment) outside of my capabilities.  I did learn a lot during the writing of this concerto and I do agree with you that there is a somewhat rushed feeling to the whole thing.  However, I am quite pleased that as you say, I actually got to finish such a thing.

The score,

I use sibelius and so the production of the score is simply a function of being able to reproduce and render the music.  I know that it is probably very hard to read and follow and that as I said, I would take the time to creat a perfomance copy if I thought anyone would ever want to perform it, but I'm under no illusion that that would ever be the case.  for me, just having the ability to entertain myself is such a way is worth a great deal to me and I post these things in the hope that someone might like them too, but I know my "style" is not at all contemporary and therefore not really of interest to most musicians of today.

In the end, I just like to spend time doing what I can and I suppose with time, I may also develope more sophistication in the writing and orchestration as I hope that I will be able to carry on writing and creating something that pleases me so much and keeps me entertained.

Once again, thank you very much for your time and your thoughts, I will ofcourse keep them in mind when I come to the next one.

Kind regards

Mark

[Second attempt at posting this, apologies if it appears twice.]

Basically I agree with SSC, so I won't repeat what's already been said. If (and I know this is a big "if"), you are willing to consider major revisions, I'd have two suggestions for where to focus:

1. Look for more places to open up the texture. You've got a particular view of the piano as a percussive instrument, and of the soloist as an intensely busy individual. Contrasting this intensity against the orchestra, rather than replicating it, is potentially a way of getting a deeper message across.

2. Reconsider the endings of the movements. They don't give a satisfying sense of summation, completion, or arrival. (This is a problem with form, as SSC pointed out.)

Thank you Tom,

I may well do futher revisions of this piece as I do like it and I would like to have it be the best it can be (under my capabilities that is).  I am also taking note of everything that people say, I do agree with lots of it, as I do with your view of the closings of at least the 1st and 2nd movements, (I like the close of the 3rd though but who know what will happen when I open that can of worms lol).

The main problems are that I don't yet have to experience or the skill to do with it what I myself would like to hear, but I will keep trying!

I don't think I agree with your idea of my idea of the soloist, I think that is more a problem of the rendering and volume of the piano as produced by the cra..y EQ on sibelius.  There many parts where the piano is supposed to be just a `part of the texture, but that's not come across in this rendering either.  My main instrument is the piano and I wanted there to be more subtle moments (inside the general whirl of the piano) but you're right, if it didn't come across like that then I need to look at it.

Thanks again for taking the time to listen and to give me your thoughts, I do appreciate it.

Regards

Mark

On 4/10/2022 at 5:52 PM, Mark101 said:

It's not an excuse, but my formal training consists of piano lessons from the age of 8 until 13.  I reached grade 3 in those times, I'm 55 now.  So much of what you suggest is probably (at the moment) outside of my capabilities.  I did learn a lot during the writing of this concerto and I do agree with you that there is a somewhat rushed feeling to the whole thing.  However, I am quite pleased that as you say, I actually got to finish such a thing.

Well the truth is that it's mighty impressive to do something on this scale without any kind of proper formal training! You should be proud, I think. Most people would've given up.

That being said, y'know your biggest problem isn't your ideas or execution, in my eyes it's just that you're not that familiar with how forms work in long pieces like this. So, if you have any questions or if you think you could use my help, I'll be glad to help you out. You have a lot of room for improvement, which considering where you're at now, is really a great thing! If you can write a piano concerto (two, it seems!) on intuition alone, I wonder what you can do with some training.

Thank you very much SSC for saying so, I am proud of my attemps.  Each time I write something I think I learn something else, but I know my lack of knowledge is hampering my efforts.  However, I have no rush, as I said, really I do it because I love to do it and it keeps me out of trouble LOL.

The first concerto is on here too somewhere.  Although I love that one too, it's a smaller (15 mins or so) and quite a lot more "pastiche" effort.  I like to think I have advanced a little since then although it too has some very beautiful moments in my humble opinion.

I would have loved to have had some sort of formal training in my youth (I might be a bit long in the tooth to start now LOL).  Believe it or not, I didn't even take music in school past the obligatory first few years or so.

When I start on the next piece, I would love to pick your brain so thank you for that offer.  It might be a while yet, the last one took about a year of tinkering, but you never know when the muse will strike!

Thanks again for your kind words and incouragement, It's much appreciated.

Perhaps this is a good question for a conversation in the forum, but I think that a certain level of obsession is necessary in order to be a good musician and or composer and I think I do have at least a touch of OCD LOL.

Mark

13 minutes ago, Mark101 said:

Perhaps this is a good question for a conversation in the forum, but I think that a certain level of obsession is necessary in order to be a good musician and or composer and I think I do have at least a touch of OCD LOL.

Why don't you open a thread on the discussion forum on that topic? Maybe other people have something to say to that!

Sorry for the late reply but I have to say that I just love the 2nd movement of this concerto!  The counterpoint and varied repetitions and the overlapping melodies and changing registers are hypnotic and beautifully crafted.  Also, melodies with repeated notes have a certain classical charm to them that I love.  You certainly are a tune-smith for having written this movement!  Great job and keep composing! 

Thank you very much Peter, 

I'm so glad you enjoyed it.  I know that it has quite a different mood to the other movements, which is what I wanted, like a break in the somewhat frenzied feel of the other 2.  I was worried though that it didn't fit well enough into the piece as a whole, I think it does, just but then I'm biased.  I tried to keep some of the disonances from the other movements to this end, although a tad more subtle.  It was fun working on it for just those reasons, I wanted that interwoven texture to be noticable and so I'm really glad you noticed it!

Thanks again for you kind words, I really appreciate it.

Mark

Hi Mark many thanks for sharing. I loved your orchestration, sounded very accomplished and professional. The only thing I think it's lacking is a great melody, and for that you def need to give yourself more time and breathing space. You have amazing material that constantly leads towards this, but never arrives. I'm a believer in that all great melodies can be played with one finger (on a piano). So I think you need to concentrate now purely on your melody writing. Analyse famous melodies, can be any genre, even pop music, their construction, and try to understand what it is that makes them great, and memorable. Do several youself, and make them simple, but profound, and insist that you play them with only one finger. Then construct a big work around them, but these melodies must remain the focal point of the work at all times. If you managed to do this it would be epic, because the connecting material you have here is wonderful. Many thanks for sharing Mark, I mean to start my 2nd piano concerto soon, wish me luck! 

All the best 

Mike 

Hi Mike,

Thanks for taking time to listen and comment, I really appreciate it.

I'm just getting the hang of orchesrtation I think, I feel like I'm learning all the time so that has to be a good thing LOL.

Did you listen to all 3 movements?  I only ask because at least the 2nd and to a lesser degree, the 3rd Movts.. are quite melodious although I do agree that the 1st movt., lacks a strong melody and it is something that I may well look at in any future edits.

Thanks again for your great comments, I do appreciate it.

Mark

Congrats on this huge work. It's impressive. My main concern is that the first movement sounds highly intense "all the time". In that sense, the other movements seem more balanced.

Anyway, surely a big thing like this may be improved, but it's fantastic and I enjoyed it.

By the way, the third movement has some "mediterranean" harmonies?

Muchas Gracias Luis,

As usual I agree with your assesment of the First movement, it is a bit full on, all the time and I do indeed need to have a look at that.

I´m not pretending that this piece is important to anyone but me, but as you said, it is the largest work I've completed so far and even though I'm having a break from it at the moment (having spent nearly a year on it so far), I will be revisiting it in the future as I've had a lot of good advice from the good folks here and in other forums, and I would like to improve whatever I can, within my capabilities lol.

I'm working on a piano and orchestra rhapsody at the moment so that I can try and try to develope a bit more fluidity for a while, and then I'll probably revisit this piece and see how we go.

Si, yo creo tambien que hay unas harmonias mediteraneos por alli, infiltrando de vez en cuando, pero bueno, no puedes vivir en un pais durante 10 años sin absorber un poco del sabor!  Me gusta mucho los sonidos de me ya hogar!

Un abrazo y muchas gracias de nuevo.

Mark