Is there a culture of toxic masculinity at YCF?

Is there a culture of toxic masculinity (or in general, toxic superiority) at Young Composers Forum?  I think this is a pertinent question given some recent exchanges in the forums.  Namely, the insistence that in order to have a valid opinion one must "show your work" or "prove your point using empirical evidence".  That kind of reasoning is understandable if one is trying to publish a peer reviewed article in some sort of musicological journal where the scientific method is a must.  But here?  Whatever happened to just having an opinion based on what you believe to be right and agreeing to disagree?  Recent topics seem to degenerate to proving your point right beyond a doubt and if you can't then you're not a man and you're not right.  It's a competition where each party resorts to basically yelling at each other "I'm more right than you are!" (metaphorically of course).

Thoughts?

Well, I have my own strong opinions of course, such as, Chopin was one of the best composers for piano.  Better than Rachmaninoff and Ravel too.  But why do I feel this way?  I feel this way because he was the most consistent composer where most of his works are of superior quality.  Ok so that statement may upset people who dislike Chopin and prefer a composer such as Rachmaninoff.  

I certainly cannot prove that Chopin is a better composer than Rachmaninoff, and there are certainly instances where Rachmaninoff's works can be classified as top tier piano literature, but I feel he is not as consistent as a composer like Chopin.  Bring it on!

Just kidding, if you disagree, that's fine and expected.  Just state your points in a civil manner on why you disagree with me, and of course, let me know who your favorite composer is and what is your reasoning behind your decision?

No need to prove it with evidence.  Just prove it with passion.

31 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Is there a culture of toxic masculinity (or in general, toxic superiority) at Young Composers Forum?

I don't think so, and I hope people do read the guidelines for the discussion forum. 🙂

31 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Namely, the insistence that in order to have a valid opinion one must "show your work" or "prove your point using empirical evidence".  That kind of reasoning is understandable if one is trying to publish a peer reviewed article in some sort of musicological journal where the scientific method is a must.  But here?  Whatever happened to just having an opinion based on what you believe to be right and agreeing to disagree? 

The issue is this: there are things that are up to people's own experiences and taste, and there are things which we can observe and measure, things that are either true or they are not. If my entire argument, say, hinges on the fact that Mozart was born in 1954, it becomes key to actually establish this to be the case with some degree of accuracy.

The point of having a discussion and a conversation is to try to find out what's the case, if it's something that can be even found out. We can discuss things, pool our opinions together and figure out what is best by talking it out, hopefully. And everyone is free to disagree or agree, of course, but as mentioned in the guidelines, if you aren't willing to discuss things, then the discussion subforum isn't for you. If you state out an opinion or fact and someone challenges it, or comments on it, that's the nature of the forum and it's up to you to decide if it's worth your time and effort to argue back. Having just people drive-by with their opinions is fine, but I'm sure you can understand that's not very conducive to a conversation.

31 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Recent topics seem to degenerate to proving your point right beyond a doubt and if you can't then you're not a man and you're not right.  It's a competition where each party resorts to basically yelling at each other "I'm more right than you are!" (metaphorically of course).

I like arguing, talking and discussing things, and I know that's not for everyone. However, I think that the most important thing is that we respect each other and don't allow any discussion to devolve into personal insults. If we can't be nice to each other, there's no chance to even start talking about anything, let alone get anything meaningful out of the discussion.

9 minutes ago, SSC said:

I like arguing, talking and discussing things, and I know that's not for everyone. However, I think that the most important thing is that we respect each other and don't allow any discussion to devolve into personal insults. If we can't be nice to each other, there's no chance to even start talking about anything, let alone get anything meaningful out of the discussion.

True, but my concern is also - do people feel like they can admit that you (or anyone) is right about something while also saving face?  Sometimes it seems like the situations in the forums end up being win-lose at best or lose-lose at worst in the long run.  Of course I agree that we should have a rule against personal insults, or more specifically - ad hominem arguments - (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

25 minutes ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

True, but my concern is also - do people feel like they can admit that you (or anyone) is right about something while also saving face?  Sometimes it seems like the situations in the forums end up being win-lose at best or lose-lose at worst in the long run.

It depends entirely on the people participating and their willingness to separate themselves from their own ideas, so that attacking an idea isn't attacking THEM, as an individual. This also helps to just admit when you got something wrong, or more importantly, when you misunderstood someone's position, which is a lot more common. The thing is, there's also the type of people who think that the discussion forum is their personal blog, which makes things really hard since they have no interest in, well, discussing. It's parroting a position, or being highly combative. This kind of zero-sum mentality ends poorly for both the thread and the community in general.

There's a reason why in the guidelines I wrote 12 years ago there's this bit:

Quote

Q) But what if I just want to state my opinion without others commenting on it??

A) The moderation here isn't for protecting you from the backlash of your statements UNLESS they derail the thread entirely or become too abusive. Just like you can comment on others' opinions, be prepared to be commented on. If you do NOT wish others to engage your ideas then do NOT post them.

Q) But I DO really think that all music after 1740 sucks and Mozart is the best composer ever!

A) The forum isn't your personal blog. What you say has consequences and be prepared if you really go out and say stuff like this. Again, we will NOT protect you from yourself and you can expect to hear back opinions which are just as harsh.

This is a reference to an actual dude who showed up once and that was his main argument. He'd basically invade miscellaneous threads and post about how it's all garbage except for music written before 1740 (or some other highly specific date, I don't remember exactly.) He got banned shortly after for being disruptive. We've had this, and we've had all sorts of stuff over the years.

But in the end, like I said before, if we're civil and nice to each other, we can get over all that stuff and have a good community that values and respects its members, even if people disagree on things. Back then we had quite a variety of different people holding different view points, and besides some banter, we were all still there. And for the few of us who remain, I really wish we can get something like that going again.

4 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

True, but my concern is also - do people feel like they can admit that you (or anyone) is right about something while also saving face?  Sometimes it seems like the situations in the forums end up being win-lose at best or lose-lose at worst in the long run.

What I personally do is when debating someone who is quite difficult, is to start using the phrase In my opinion when I see someone getting defensive.  This way it diffuses the tension a bit, and you can't argue the fact that this is my opinion.  But it depends on the person, because sometimes people don't read or listen and are just plain tone deaf.  If that is the case, then a healthy debate cannot even be possible, and its best to just settle the argument with a friendly "we will just agree to disagree" statement.

5 hours ago, PeterthePapercomPoser said:

Whatever happened to just having an opinion based on what you believe to be right and agreeing to disagree? 

I wish this was the case, and it should be. I would hope to receive lots of technical comments on my work from those who've studied music seriously. And just the same, I like hearing the thoughts from teenagers and amateur composers too. We're ultimately trying to affect anyone who listens to our music, and I like hearing any kind of feedback.

Arguing can be fun, but a lot of times it can lead to maliciousness and vendettas, and I'm sure it's a pretty big turn off for anyone dipping their toes in the YC waters for the first time. Regardless of who's right or wrong, when a 60 comment thread is blatantly going nowhere and reeks of an active warhead, those types of discussions should maybe be taken to personal messages to resolve any type of derailed issue. Unfortunately, not everyone is mature enough to handle dissenting opinions the right way, and it's a shame it can be viewed publicly in what is supposed to be a forum mostly meant for young aspiring composers. 

I just hope younger members feel like they can say what they want to say without feeling the need to have a Master's to drop a comment. It doesn't necessarily feel like that to me, but just saying I hope it doesn't feel like that to others; It used to not when I joined this site like 13 years ago or whatever.

5 hours ago, SSC said:

However, I think that the most important thing is that we respect each other and don't allow any discussion to devolve into personal insults. If we can't be nice to each other, there's no chance to even start talking about anything, let alone get anything meaningful out of the discussion.

And this

I agree one can have just an opinion but if you discuss about it you are going to give arguments and these lead to counterarguments, leading to more arguments etcetera. Why discuss if you don't want to have arguments? I'm fine with someone thinking modern music is terrible noise but if I belong to some sort of evil group because I compose also modern music... Than it heads in a wrong direction pretty fast. And yes you can think modern music is evil, such opinion must be allowed imo, but keep it civilized. 

2 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Regardless of who's right or wrong, when a 60 comment thread is blatantly going nowhere and reeks of an active warhead, those types of discussions should maybe be taken to personal messages to resolve any type of derailed issue. Unfortunately, not everyone is mature enough to handle dissenting opinions the right way, and it's a shame it can be viewed publicly in what is supposed to be a forum mostly meant for young aspiring composers.

As far as my experience with this forum(as a user as well as someone who read silently before) goes, this has been a one-in-a-time occurrence. Things got heated quickly, there were some misunderstandings and slapfights about semantics, but besides some minor taunts(which I took to be in the tone of the discussion and understood as such by the addressee), not much happened. Nobody involved poo pooed up other threads or seems to hold a grudge.

Then again, it might as well have been closed before the first page break to prevent such slapfights.

Whether or not it's "toxic masculinity/superiority/blah" is, to me, missing the point.

It's just a lack of common decency and respect from certain members.

4 hours ago, Thatguy v2.0 said:

Arguing can be fun, but a lot of times it can lead to maliciousness and vendettas, and I'm sure it's a pretty big turn off for anyone dipping their toes in the YC waters for the first time. Regardless of who's right or wrong, when a 60 comment thread is blatantly going nowhere and reeks of an active warhead, those types of discussions should maybe be taken to personal messages to resolve any type of derailed issue. Unfortunately, not everyone is mature enough to handle dissenting opinions the right way, and it's a shame it can be viewed publicly in what is supposed to be a forum mostly meant for young aspiring composers. 

This is why I do hope people read and attempt to follow the spirit of guidelines as much as possible. I think composers discussing music has always been serious business (for example Wagner's super harsh critique of Brahms) so that threads getting heated is inevitable. I also think that this discussion forum has an important role to play, specially for younger composers. It's why it's here.

But like I said before, it's important that we are all civil to one another and that we are able to recognize when things are spiraling out of control. It's not necessarily a bad thing if the thread derails into a different discussion, but it's how and why that matters.

Interesting. The masculinity ‘component’ prevails because male is represented on the site more than female. I wasn’t aware of toxicity – probably because I’m not here enough to encounter it. I did in just one case of someone erratically too ready to dish out ad hominem attacks and so annoyingly condescending and supercilious; so I put the member on my ignore list. (The only one in some years of attending forums.) Not that I’m unwilling to fight back but there’s no point. At least one seasoned, experienced composer disappeared probably over the same issue.

Almost everything here is opinion unless someone’s talking the physics of music and/or digital reproduction. Some opinion may be misguided which in itself is opining. Suggesting an alternative may need diplomacy. I suppose it’s also in the nature of anything creative that the creator can be sensitive - and offended when faced with what one hopes is constructive criticism. It seems important to encourage without raising false hopes. That’s difficult.

Wars start when one side declares ‘I’m more right than you!’

In my occasional visits I haven’t encountered toxicity except as mentioned. It’s quite easy to say ‘allow my opinion but can we agree to disagree?’

1 hour ago, Quinn said:

I did in just one case of someone (probably with aspergers) too ready to dish out ad hominem attacks and so annoyingly condescending and supercilious; so I put the member on my ignore list. (The only one in some years of attending forums.)

Let's see now:

Yes, you're a real diplomat.

And as the cherry on top, implying I have aspergers? Stay classy dude and remember: We are masters of the unsaid words, but slaves of those we let slip out.

Hi! I don't post a lot anymore on this forum besides reviewing people's choral music, but I feel the need to chime in after reading this, as well as the other 3-page thread that's presumably being referenced here.

One thing both threads have in common? Using "asperger's" or "on the spectrum" as either an excuse for disrespectful behaviour or a straight-up insult (the latter was by the person who was banned for his toxic comments on the other thread--rightly, in my opinion).

Well, I am on the [autism] spectrum (not the only one on this forum, either) and I'm pretty sick of people using my condition as a synonym for either "mean" or "stupid". I promise you that's not what it means. In fact, the discussions on the autistic forums I'm a part of are generally more mature and respectful than the ones here.

So I don't know about toxic masculinity, but this is another example of intolerance on this forum. (And yes, intolerance for differing viewpoints is another pretty pervasive one that's already been addressed in this thread.) I can't speak for others, but it's part of why I post as little as I do--and I'm always extremely careful what I say, lest I give people more ammunition for conflating autism with something it's not.

39 minutes ago, NRKulus said:

So I don't know about toxic masculinity, but this is another example of intolerance on this forum. (And yes, intolerance for differing viewpoints is another pretty pervasive one that's already been addressed in this thread.) I can't speak for others, but it's part of why I post as little as I do--and I'm always extremely careful what I say, lest I give people more ammunition for conflating autism with something it's not.

I'm sorry you feel that way, we're trying to steer things in a better direction lately. I want people to feel like they can engage with other members without the danger of it just getting into an uncontrolled shouting match. Additionally, I do recommend people use the report post function if you think it's necessary or appropriate. Again, at least on the moderation side, we're doing our best at the moment with the limited resources we have.

41 minutes ago, SSC said:

I'm sorry you feel that way, we're trying to steer things in a better direction lately. I want people to feel like they can engage with other members without the danger of it just getting into an uncontrolled shouting match. Additionally, I do recommend people use the report post function if you think it's necessary or appropriate. Again, at least on the moderation side, we're doing our best at the moment with the limited resources we have.

 

Thanks, SSC. From what I've observed, it's not usually too bad here, but there are little things like what I mentioned that can make people uncomfortable about posting or feel like their viewpoints might not be welcome... so I thought it was important to point out.

\editing this post as a new post intervened.

NRKulus

^^^ Can't help a little surprise at that. I haven't noticed much intolerance. What is there in music to be intolerant about except listeners' style preferences?  There have been discussions and occasionally sharp words. So what?

But when it comes to ad hominem attacks or 'I'm superior to you' there's no excuse. Some are more experienced than others but even the most experience had to start somewhere and were dependent on tuition; help; tips from those more seasoned. And there's no need to attack the person rather than question their argument. If I felt uncomfortable about posting a view or even a crit, I wouldn't post it. If I were to feel uncomfortable here; I'd leave. 

Perhaps because I spend most of my time listening and sometimes commenting on members' works I don't notice it as much.

5 hours ago, Quinn said:

 or 'I'm superior to you' there's no excuse.

Im guilty of that. Someone called me a beginner so I said I was better than them. It was wrong to say, but I also don't think everyone here is as innocent as they may make themselves seem. There is something to be said about elitism among people who might paint themselves as being against elitism in music? 🤨

Quinn, I think you're right for the most part. I might have come across a little strongly in my post above because I was annoyed at the autism thing surfacing on multiple threads over a couple days. I felt like that wasn't the first time either, but going through this forum, I see the vast majority of discussions are quite respectful. So I might have been a little unfair to the forum's overall culture in my first post, and I apologize for that.

And the viewpoint intolerance that I mentioned is just what's being discussed in this thread: the tendency to attack the person based on their viewpoint. (Which, again, is probably rarer here than maybe I implied in my original post.) So I think we're actually in agreement there.

I have to disagree with the "if you feel uncomfortable, leave" mentality, though... I'm not a mod or admin, but I would think they would want as many composers as possible to feel welcome here. And it's generally not a good look to make people feel unwelcome based on their identity (which tends to happen when multiple people use that identity as an insult). That's all I meant.

22 minutes ago, NRKulus said:

I have to disagree with the "if you feel uncomfortable, leave" mentality, though... I'm not a mod or admin, but I would think they would want as many composers as possible to feel welcome here. And it's generally not a good look to make people feel unwelcome based on their identity (which tends to happen when multiple people use that identity as an insult). That's all I meant.

Yes, but that's just my view and I dare say I'm fairly alone - so take no further notice of that remark!  I once intended just to disappear like a couple of others seem to - one for the same reason and the other possibly because his works are fairly extended and intense - and it's a feature of composition that it can take time. The composition may take a couple of days but getting it into the DAW and then notation software can take weeks!  Sometimes we (well, I) need to take a recharge break. Maybe we'll see him back.

30 minutes ago, NRKulus said:

I'm not a mod or admin, but I would think they would want as many composers as possible to feel welcome here. And it's generally not a good look to make people feel unwelcome based on their identity (which tends to happen when multiple people use that identity as an insult).

Well, the idea for the discussion guidelines is to give people an idea of what happens regularly in discussions. It's not meant to keep anyone away from discussing things or away from the forum, per se, but rather inform what is the ideal best practice. If someone thinks it's not for them, they can decide then and there and not engage, and that's fine. They can keep posting music and commenting on other people's work all the same, as well as participate in other parts of the forum too.

I would like it, however, that as many people as possible participate in the community subforums in general (out of which the discussion subforum only one of them.) And, well, it's a difficult balance having the place be free enough that people can say whatever is on their mind and making it feel welcoming to everyone. You can't have both things to the same degree, and while I think the music posting part is a lot more welcoming in the sense that you engage on an individual level with people and music, the community part does require a little bit of filtering, or we end up with chaos, as is often the case on the internet.

Edit: Post no longer relevant.